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CORRUPTION AND CRIME COMMISSION
OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA
COMMISSIONER JOHN McKECHNIE QC
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
AT PERTH ON MONDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2015, AT 10.33 AM
COUNSEL:
MR A. TROY
MS K. NELSON
9/11/15
1
CLARE, KAREN NATALIE called:
THE COMMISSIONER:
Please be seated.
THE ASSOCIATE:
This is a continuation of examinations for
the purposes of the investigation under the Corruption,
Crime and Misconduct Act 2003. The scope and purpose of
the investigation is to determine if any public officer has
engaged in misconduct in relation to the provision the
provision of agreed services to the Department of
Transport.
The commissioner orders that all witnesses are to remain
out of the hearing room until such time as they are called
upon to give evidence, and further orders that witnesses
are not to discuss their evidence with any other witness
until that witness has completed giving his or her
evidence.
THE COMMISSIONER:
I have previously indicated my reasons
why this will be a public examination and why others will
be a public examination. I understand that Mr James is
appearing?
JAMES, MR:
Yes, your Honour, I seek leave to represent
the witness Karen Clare during her examination.
THE COMMISSIONER:
JAMES, MR:
Leave is granted.
Thank you, sir.
THE COMMISSIONER:
Before we proceed, Ms Clare, it’s
necessary for you to take an oath or affirmation.
CLARE, KAREN NATALIE sworn:
THE COMMISSIONER:
Ms Clare, before we start, you have
completed the notice to witnesses?---Yes.
Did you read it?---Yes.
Did you understand it?---Yes.
Very well. I appoint Mr Troy and Ms Nelson as counsel to
assist me, Mr Troy will be asking you questions on my
behalf. I should say when the examination is concluded,
Mr James, I will give you an opportunity to ask any
questions that you may wish.
JAMES, MR:
TROY, MR:
Thank you, sir.
Thank you, sir.
Ms Clare, I understand that you work in an administrative
capacity with the Shire of Koorda. Is that right?---Yes.
Did you commence working for the shire probably about
six years ago now, in 2009?---Yes.
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
2
No doubt you have lots of particular tasks within the
shire, but the shire carries out certain work, doesn’t it,
for the Department of Transport?---Yes.
Did you get some training back in 2009 when you started
working with the shire in relation to the computer system
that the Department of Transport uses?---Yes.
Did you understand that’s a system called TRELIS?---Yes.
Did you have to go to Perth and undergo a training course
for about a week?---Yes, sir.
That was, as I say, back in 2009?
Is that correct?---Yes.
You know, don’t you, a person called Greg Briotti?---Yes.
He’s a person who’s from Koorda originally?---Mm’hm.
Did you know that for some years, including this year, he
was a person who would carry out practical driving
assessments on behalf of the Department of Transport ?
---Yes.
There were occasions when he would come to Koorda in order
to carry out practical driving assessments?---Yes.
For people who wanted to get a motorcycle licence or a
larger motorcycle licence, that sort of thing?---Yes.
Just as a general proposition, if someone wanted to take a
test, take a practical driving assessment, there were
various things they needed to do first. Is that right?
---Yes.
They would need to, I think, take a computer test?---Yes.
They would have to pay a fee?---Yes.
And they would have to do a certain number of hours
training. Is that right?---Yes, for a car licence, yes.
For a car licence?---Yes.
If they did all that, they would be what’s called entitled
to carry out the practical driving assessment?---Yes.
And there would be a system, a computer system, that would
record whether or not they had that entitlement?---Yes.
In relation to a person that wanted to carry out a
practical driving assessment, certainly this year, it
wasn’t possible, was it, for them to book a practical
driving assessment directly with the shire?---No.
They would have to contact Mr Briotti directly?---Yes,
correct.
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
3
Were you aware of the fact that for some time Mr Briotti’s
mobile number had been on the web site of the Shire of
Koorda?---Yes.
And that went back to about 2010, I think?---Yes.
Would there be instances where Mr Briotti would call you,
for example, in your capacity of working for the Shire of
Koorda to find out if a particular person had the
entitlement to take a practical driving assessment?---Yes.
And you would be able to check on the computer to see
whether that was the case?---Yes.
And advise Mr Briotti accordingly?---Yes.
There would be occasions, would there, when Mr Briotti
would advise you that he had carried out a practical
driving assessment for a particular person?---Yes.
Let’s say that person had passed, he’d ask you to reflect
that within the computer system at the shire offices. Is
that right?---Yes.
Were you depending upon Mr Briotti telling you that a
particular person had passed before you could enter the
details into the system?---We would go off the paperwork.
Yes, and that paperwork would be supplied by Mr Briotti?
---On some occasions, yes, or the client direct.
So if a client, for example, was taking a test for whatever
vehicle actually in Koorda, first of all the test would be
carried out very close to the Shire offices, would it?---I
don’t know where the test - - You wouldn’t observe the person taking the test?---No. No.
But if a person was taking a test in Koorda, once they had
completed it they would be given the paperwork would they?
---Yes.
By the person who had administered the test?---Yes.
Which would be Mr Briotti?---Yes.
Then sometimes that person would bring in the paperwork to
show you, for example, that he had passed?---Yes.
You would look at the paperwork and then you would make the
necessary entry into the computer system. Is that
correct?---Yes.
But there would be instances also when Mr Briotti rather
than the person who took the test would give you the
paperwork. Is that right?---Yes.
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
4
Would that sometimes be Mr Briotti giving you the paperwork
in person?---Yes.
But also there would be occasions when Mr Briotti would
send the paperwork by post?---Yes.
Sometimes he would fax the paperwork?---Yes.
Sometimes he would leave the paperwork in some sort of
keyhole or hatch that is outside the Shire office. Is that
the position?---Yes.
You and perhaps some of your colleagues in those instances,
that is, when the paperwork would be posted or faxed or
simply deposited outside, would take the paperwork would
you?---Yes.
Then you would look at it and you would enter the details
into the computer system?---Yes.
When you would do that, Mr Briotti would not necessarily be
there physically?---Yes.
In fact generally when the paperwork had either been mailed
or faxed or left, Mr Briotti would not be there?
---Correct, yes.
You would go off the paperwork?---Yes.
Would Mr Briotti sometimes attach to the paperwork little
yellow sticky notes?---Yes.
In particular, would he write on those notes a particular
time when he would ask that the test is processed?---Yes.
So you would receive the paperwork and you would be asked
as a result of these yellow sticky notes to enter the fact
that the person had passed into the system at a particular
time?---Yes.
How long had it been that Mr Briotti had been in the habit
of providing to you paperwork with those yellow stick notes
on it which told you what time to enter the test into the
system?---Probably 18 months.
So we’re now obviously in November 2015, you were spoken to
investigators from the commission in June this year. Are
you saying 18 months back from today’s date approximately?
---Or 18 months back from June so, yeah, beginning of 2014
roughly.
I’m not trying to hold you to a particular date and time
but you have a sense that from about early 2014 the habit
of Mr Briotti of providing the paperwork with the guides by
way of the sticky notes commenced?---Yes.
When you first received a piece of paperwork that had those
yellow sticky notes on it, do you remember if you had any
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
5
conversation with Mr Briotti about it?---No.
Do you remember if you spoke with anyone within the Shire
when you first received paperwork with the yellow sticky
notes on them?---Not that I can remember, no.
When you first got the paperwork and it had sticky notes on
it telling you to enter the results of the test at a
particular time, were you troubled by that in any way?
---No.
I think when you were spoken to by investigators from the
commission in June this year, you explained to them that
there were occasions when you would not see Mr Briotti but
there would still be paperwork that suggested that a test
had occurred?---Yes.
And that you would go by the paperwork?---Yes.
You were asked, I think, if you could remember the last
time that someone who actually was from Koorda had obtained
a licence this year, that is, in 2015 and you had
difficulty in remembering that. Is that correct?---Yes.
And there are about 300 people living in the Koorda area.
Is that so?---In the town, yes.
In the town? You knew that Mr Briotti, although he was
from Koorda, now lived of course in Perth?---Yes.
In Helena Valley. Over the period perhaps of 18 months or
so from the start of 2014, would there be a number of
occasions when you would get a batch of paperwork of
perhaps up to 10 practical driving assessment sheets in
one go?---Yes.
You were being asked to complete or to enter into the
system the result of those tests maybe one or two days
after the test was said to have occurred?---Yes.
Did it ever occur to you that Mr Briotti seemed to be
carrying out quite a large number of tests in Koorda?---No.
Did you ever discuss with anyone at the Shire the fact that
there appeared to be quite a large number of tests that
were being carried out by Mr Briotti in Koorda according to
the paperwork?---No.
When you got paperwork that suggested Mr Briotti had
carried out a test, would the paperwork always say that the
test had occurred in Koorda?---Yes.
Without exception?---Yes.
When you looked at that what was your thought process, did
you always assume that perhaps over the previous weekend or
some other days Mr Briotti had visited Koorda and carried
out these tests?---Yes.
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
6
Or did you have any inkling or suspicion, Ms Clare, that
some of these tests at least were being carried out by
Mr Briotti in Perth as opposed to Koorda?---No.
That never occurred to you?---No.
That never crossed your mind?---No.
You never discussed that with anyone?---No.
You understood that normally Mr Briotti would carry out
tests in Koorda on weekends. Is that right?---Sometimes on
weekends, yes.
But sometimes not?---Sometimes during the week.
Would you ever get assessment sheets from Mr Briotti that
had been signed by the particular person who had taken the
test but suggested that the test still hadn’t happened? Do
you remember that?---Yes.
So you would get a piece of paperwork that suggested a test
had occurred but it was being said that the test was at
some stage into the future?---Yes.
Did that happen quite regularly?---On occasions, yes.
You would process such a test into the system?---Yes.
And you would be guided, presumably, by the yellow sticky
notes that had been attached to the document as to what
time to do that?---Yes.
Did you understand it was necessary to try to ensure that
the approximate time that you were processing the test into
the system coincided with the time that was on the
paperwork?---Yes.
And the paperwork would say that the test had occurred in
Koorda?---Yes.
When you had that sort of situation where, let’s say, there
was a piece of paperwork that was saying that there was a
test that had occurred in Koorda on a particular day at
2 o’clock in the afternoon and you were looking at that
paperwork at, say, 9 o’clock in the morning of that day, it
must have occurred to you in that sort of situation that
something was wrong?---I had just assumed that it would’ve
been from yesterday or the day before. He’d gone over his
quota, so he’s put the next day’s date on it.
When you say that he has gone over his quota, what do you
mean by that?---I assumed that, I don’t know, he may have
restrictions on how many he can do in a day, I don’t know.
He’d done more than he was allowed to that day or
something, so he’s put it to the next day.
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
7
THE COMMISSIONER:
Did you know he had a quota?---No.
Well, then why did you assume it?---I don’t know.
assumed that.
I just
TROY, MR:
You would speak with Mr Briotti quite
regularly, would you?---I don’t know about regularly.
But when he was in Koorda you would generally see him?
---Most times.
Certainly in the week?---During the week, yes.
Perhaps not on the weekend?---No.
But if he did carry out tests in Koorda in the week, you
would see him generally?---Generally.
You would communicate with him sometimes by phone.
right?---Yes.
Is that
You had his phone number?---Yes.
You were sending text messages sometimes?---Yes.
You had presumably known him for many years?---Yes.
On any occasion when you had been asked to process a test
at a time when it clearly hadn’t happened for reasons we
have just discussed, did you ever speak with Greg Briotti
just to find out why that was happening?---No.
Did you understand that the information that you were
entering into the computer was ultimately going to go into
a Department of Transport computer system?---Yes.
That it would be in an official database?---Yes.
And the intention of such an official database would be
that it contained detailed and accurate information?---yes.
Did it ever occur to you that the information that on
occasions you would enter into that database was
inaccurate?---Now probably yes.
But over the 18-month period did that never, ever occur to
you?---No.
Is there any particular person that you would report to at
the Shire of Koorda?---As in, what, my boss?
Yes.
Who would be your boss?---Linda Longmuir.
Linda?---Longmuir.
What’s her title?---She’s deputy CEO.
Then above her presumably there is the CEO?---The CEO, yes.
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
8
Do you get on fairly well with those people?---Yes.
The deputy CEO and the CEO?---Yes.
Did you ever discuss with them what was occurring so far as
Mr Briotti was concerned?---No.
Could I ask please that call number T3285 is played.
Ms Clare, a telephone call will be played. I’m not sure
whether you’re a participant in it or not but I will ask
you at the conclusion of it.
Start of TI transcript, T3285:
FOOTE:
Good morning, Shire of Koorda, Lana
speaking.
BRIOTTI:
Hello Lana.
FOOTE:
How ya going?
BRIOTTI:
Not bad. There’s uhm a big yellow
envelope there.
FOOTE:
Is there?
BRIOTTI:
Full of full of licence papers.
FOOTE:
Where would that be?
BRIOTTI:
Uhm
FOOTE:
(indistinct) have it?
BRIOTTI:
Yeah. Could have. Joy would have
dropped it in the mailbox.
FOOTE:
Big yellow envelope from Greg.
Yeah.
BRIOTTI:
Pardon?
UF:
All organized.
FOOTE:
Yeah.
BRIOTTI:
Okay. No worries. Can you do them on
the times that are that I’ve
written on the little bits of
paper?
FOOTE:
Yeah.
BRIOTTI:
Good on ya.
FOOTE:
All rightey.
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
It’s Greg here.
All organized she said.
I’ll let her know.
9
BRIOTTI:
Thank you.
FOOTE:
No worries.
BRIOTTI:
Bye bye.
FOOTE:
Bye.
See ya later.
End of TI transcript.
TROY, MR:
Ms Clare, this is a telephone call that
occurred on Monday, 20 April of this year at three minutes
past 9 in the morning. The person who is principally
speaking I think is someone who works for the Shire of
Koorda called Lana Foote. Is that right?---Yes.
There is someone who speaks in the background after
Ms Foote refers to a big yellow envelope from Greg and says
it seems all organised. Was that you or was that somebody
else?---Could’ve been me. I don’t know.
You didn’t recognise your voice particularly in the
background?---No.
You don’t remember, do you, being present when your
colleague, Lana Foote, spoke with Mr Briotti by phone at
this particular time on this day?---No, I don’t remember
that particular phone call. No.
We’ll see in a moment that you were working that day and
there were some phone calls that you participated in, but
you don’t recall being present when this particular
conversation occurred?---No.
Could call T3282 be played.
Start of TI transcript, T3282:
CLARE:
Good afternoon, Shire of Koorda, Karen
speaking.
BRIOTTI:
Hello Karen.
CLARE:
Yes.
BRIOTTI:
Just checking just checking to make sure
everything’s going all right.
CLARE:
(laughs) Hence by the oh shit yes everything’s
Going fine (laughs)
BRIOTTI:
Have you not done of ‘em yet?
CLARE:
No.
BRIOTTI:
What?
9/11/15
It’s Greg here.
Oh shit.
(laughs)
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
10
CLARE:
Oh I’ve just had them sitting here and I
thought yes yes and I looked at the clock
and it was about half past nine yes yes
can’t do the first one until ten o’clock.
Bloody hell. So I’ll go through and I’ll do
‘em now. One
BRIOTTI:
Oh yes.
CLARE:
three
BRIOTTI:
Okay.
CLARE:
Yeah I can do twelve thirties now.
BRIOTTI:
Yeah.
CLARE:
And then the rest I can’t do until three three
thirty. Okay. I shall leave them sitting
on my front thing here.
BRIOTTI:
Yeah.
CLARE:
As I said I thought about it about half past
nine
BRIOTTI:
Okay.
CLARE:
but I’ll leave it sitting right there so I
can see it.
BRIOTTI:
All right then.
CLARE:
Okay.
I’ll do it now for ya.
BRIOTTI:
Okay.
Bye.
CLARE:
Okay.
Bye.
Righto.
Righto.
(indistinct)
Leave ya with it.
End of TI transcript.
TROY, MR:
Ms Clare, that’s obviously a conversation that
you had with Greg Briotti?---Yes.
It’s the same day, it’s Monday, 20 April, but it’s later on
in the day, it’s at 12.38 it seems and you remember that
the call I played you initially was at 9.03 in the morning
with Lana Foote and Mr Briotti. Having listened to that
conversation, first of all do you now remember speaking
with Mr Briotti by phone on that day?---Yes.
And having listened to that conversation, does that cause a
memory to come to you that you had been informed by
somebody that there were a number of licence papers that
needed to be processed on that particular day?---Yes.
Is it likely that it was Lana Foote that told you that, or
somebody else?---Probably Lana, yes.
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
11
Had Lana Foote been working at the Shire for a similar sort
of period to you, or not?---No.
So she had been there for a longer period or a shorter
period?---No, shorter period.
To your knowledge, she was also familiar was she with
Mr Briotti’s practice of providing sometimes paperwork
which had those yellow sticky notes with instructions on
it?---I can’t answer for what she thought or - - No, I’m not particularly asking you as to what she thought
but had you ever been there when you could see for example
Ms Foote processing paperwork that had been provided by
Mr Briotti with those yellow sticky notes on it with
instructions?---I can’t remember whether she processed any
or not.
Had you ever discussed with Ms Foote about the fact that
Mr Briotti had a system whereby he would tell people by
these yellow sticky notes when it is that they should be
processing the tests in the system?---I can’t remember
whether I discussed it with her or not.
What seems to be the position and I’ll just ask you to
confirm whether this is the case or not, but from the phone
conversation it seems there were a number of documents for
you on this particular day for you to process. Is that
correct?---Yes.
You refer to the fact that you looked at the clock and it
was about half past 9 in the conversation?---Yes.
Does it seem from that that at some stage before 9.30 that
morning you became aware of the fact that there were a
number of documents you needed to process?---Yes.
And the notes told you what times you could process the
documents?---Yes.
The first one it seems could not be processed until
10 o’clock. Is that right?---Yes.
What you seemed to be conveying to Mr Briotti was that you
had seen what your instructions were and that the first
entry needed to be made at 10 o’clock but then perhaps you
had gone on to do something else and the need to enter
these tests into the system had slipped your mind?---Yes.
Then he rings you and you remember - - -?---Yes.
- - - presumably that you needed to enter these things into
the system for him?---Yes.
You refer to the fact that you can do 12.30s now.
a reference to time?---Yes.
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
Is that
12
12.30? So there were some that you couldn’t do until 12.30
according to the instructions on the yellow sticky - - -?
---Yes.
And there were others that you couldn’t do until 3.30?
---Yes.
Did you have any understanding as to why it was for example
there were some you had to do at 12.30 and you couldn’t do
before 12.30?---Obviously the time on the paperwork showed
that they sat at a certain time, so you can’t enter the
result in obviously before they’ve sat.
You knew, didn’t you, on this particular day they had not
done the test at 12.30 pm?---Because that’s what’s on the
paperwork, it shows what time they start and finish the
test.
Yes, but you knew in this particular instance that the
paperwork had arrived you were being asked to, for a
particular person, enter into the system the result at
12.30 pm, yes?---Yes.
On 20 April, but you would have known obviously at this
time they had not taken the test at 12.30 pm on 20 April?
---Yes.
But you still entered it into the system?---Yes.
You didn’t in this conversation question this practice with
Mr Briotti?---No.
And you never had questioned it with him in the past?---No.
You never discussed it with anyone?---No.
This was a practice that as of 20 April 2015 had been
ongoing for clearly quite some time. Would that be right?
---Yes.
You were quite familiar with Mr Briotti’s way of practise
at that time?---Yes.
Can I ask for document 0272 please. Ms Clare, what’s on
the screen in front of you is a printout of text messages
sent by you for a certain period to Mr Briotti and the
first message is on Tuesday, 14 April this year so that’s
obviously six days before the date that we were just
looking at and can you see that you, according to this
document, sent a text message at 12.37 pm?---Yes.
The number there appears to be, does it, a driver licence
number?---Yes.
When you say “good to go” what are you conveying in that
message?---That they have the appropriate test entitlement
and learner’s permit.
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
13
They have the entitlement which would enable them to sit
the practical driving assessment?---Yes.
There’s a reference, I think, to the word “Bright”.
that a person?---Yes, surname.
Is
That’s the person’s surname. I ask that because if we look
at the next set of messages which are on the day we’ve just
been looking at, 20 April, we can see a text message from
you to Mr Briotti at 12.41 pm. That’s the first text
message of that date. Can you see that?---Yes.
That is about two minutes after the conversation you had
had by phone with Mr Briotti that we just played?---Mm’hm.
So you speak with Mr Briotti, it reminds you of course that
you need to enter into the system the various assessment
results and you start to do so, do you, as soon as you
finish speaking with Mr Briotti?---Yes.
Then you conveyed to Mr Briotti the results.
right?---Yes.
Is that
So at 12.41 pm you tell him that for a Leigh Ann Bright,
and it’s the same licence number as you referred to in your
text of 14 April, M.R. Dunn?---Yes.
So the result of Ms Bright’s assessment has been entered
into the system as of about 12.41 pm?---Yes.
Do you know Leigh Ann Bright?---No.
Do you know if she lives in Koorda?---No.
There is a message then, it says 12.34, I’m not sure
whether it’s 12.34 or 12.44, but it’s a text message in any
event from you to Mr Briotti that refers to a person called
Kody Schippers?---Yes.
Do you see that, and again his licence number and his RE,
which is a motorcycle licence done. Do you know Kody
Schippers?---No.
Do you know if he lives in Koorda?---No.
Then at 12.46 there’s a reference to James Herbert?---Yes.
Is he someone you know?---No.
Then you discuss at 106 a person called Rowan Riley, and
you say that you will need to get back to Mr Briotti about
that person? Do you see that?---Yes.
Then there are two more text messages that you send
approximately the same time, Rosemary Gallagher at 2.26 pm,
H.R. Dunn. Do you see that?---Yes.
Do you know Rosemary Gallagher?---No.
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
14
You don’t know if she lives in Koorda?---No.
And then the final text message for that day at 2.27 pm,
Dareen Arias, with a registration or a licence number I
should say, R, capital, Dunn?---Yes.
So again Mr Arias has been entered into the system as of
about 2.27 pm? Is that right?---Yes.
I will ask that that be taken off the screen for a moment
and replaced with document 0135 please.
This is a six-page document, Ms Clare.
page 5 please?---Mm’hm.
I think if we go to
Thank you. I just want to look at this as an example,
Ms Clare, if I can. This is a motorcycle on-road
assessment score sheet, and you can see that we’ve got the
plate number of the vehicle and then it is said that the
test has occurred in Koorda, commencing at 2 o’clock on
20 April 2015?---Yes.
If we scroll down, we can see that it relates to that last
person who I looked at in terms of the text messages,
Dareen Arias. Can you see that?---Yes.
The assessor is Greg.
---Yes.
That’s obviously Gregg Briotti?
And the start time of the test is 2 o’clock and the finish
time is 2.30?---Yes.
And it said that Mr Arias has passed?---Yes.
As we saw, you sent a text message to inform Mr Briotti
that that had been processed at 2.27 pm?---Yes.
In relation to a test that is said to have finished at
2.30 pm?---Yes.
And then on this document there the stamp “Processed on
line, Koorda Shire Council”? Is that right?---Yes.
And you would have applied that stamp to that document,
would you?---Yes.
So you knew, of course, that Gregg Briotti was not in
Koorda on this particular day?---I didn’t know for certain.
This is Monday, 20 April. This is a day when you get a
number of assessment score sheets that are apparently in a
yellow envelope and have the yellow stickies on them that
explain what time they need to be entered?---Mm’hm.
Yes, so it’s the same day, 20 April, and it’s the day when
you speak with Mr Briotti at about 20 to 1 in the afternoon
and you realise that you haven’t entered the documents, the
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
15
results into the system?---Mm’hm.
You send a number of text messages to Mr Briotti on that
day. Okay?---Yes.
So you’re communicating with Mr Briotti not in person, you
received a phone call from him, you send text messages to
him?---Mm’hm.
He has left some paperwork in the office that he draws to
the attention of your colleague, Ms Foote. Okay?---Mm’hm.
It would have been obvious to you, wouldn’t it, as you were
entering this result into the system that Mr Briotti was
not in Koorda that day?---Yes.
It must have been obvious to you therefore that the test
that is said to have occurred in Koorda between 2 o’clock
and 2.30 that day could not have occurred in Koorda between
2 o’clock and 2.30?---Yes.
But nonetheless, you were entering it into the system that
the test had been passed, and if one looked at that
paperwork without knowing anything more, one would think
that that test had occurred in Koorda that day?---Yes.
Did you have any suspicion at all as to whether or not this
person, Mr Arias, had ever been to Koorda to take a test?
---No.
Or indeed, whether he had ever taken a test?---No.
You never spoke with Mr Briotti to ask him whether, for
occasions when he was saying that a test had occurred at a
time when clearly it hadn’t, whether the test had actually
occurred at all. You never asked him that?---No.
If that could be taken off the screen, thank you.
can play please call T3283.
If we
Start of TI transcript, T3283:
CLARE:
Good afternoon, Shire of Koorda, Karen
speaking.
BRIOTTI:
Hi, Karen, it’s Greg here.
CLARE:
Yes.
BRIOTTI:
How’re you going?
CLARE:
Oh, yes (laughs).
BRIOTTI:
Are we uhm, are we all done?
CLARE:
Er, no.
9/11/15
We haven’t done uhm Boardman.
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
16
BRIOTTI:
Okay.
CLARE:
Or whatever his name, yeah, he’s threethirty.
BRIOTTI:
Oh righto, okay. I’m jumpin’ the gun.
CLARE:
Yeah.
BRIOTTI:
Uhm, can you check this number for me,
please?
CLARE:
Yeah.
BRIOTTI:
Three oh two four.
CLARE:
Three oh two four.
BRIOTTI:
Eight five six. It’s for an RE, Michael
Richards, son. Richardson.
CLARE:
Richardson?
BRIOTTI:
Yes.
CLARE:
Okay. Righti-ho. I shall check now, three
oh two four eight five six.
BRIOTTI:
Yeah.
CLARE:
Oh, log in, three, oh no, where are we?
Search licence, three oh two four eight five
six, Michael Richardson.
BRIOTTI:
Hasn’t got a permit, has he?
CLARE:
Uhm, dunno, still coming up.
BRIOTTI:
Okay.
CLARE:
Ah, here we go. He, he has an RE learner’s
permit, expires next year, and he has a PDA.
He’s good to go.
BRIOTTI:
Holy shitbags.
CLARE:
(laughs)
BRIOTTI:
Righto.
9/11/15
Thanks for that.
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
17
CLARE:
(laughs) So that was obviously a bit of a
shock (laughs).
BRIOTTI:
Well yeah.
CLARE:
Yeah. No, he got his, no he, he sat his CTT
in 2013. He’s good to go.
BRIOTTI:
Righto.
CLARE:
Okay, and I’ll get back in touch when I’ve
done the uhm
BRIOTTI:
No worries.
CLARE:
The Boardman.
BRIOTTI:
Thank you.
CLARE:
Righto.
BRIOTTI:
Bye for now.
CLARE:
See ya.
Thank you.
Thanks for doin’ all that.
Okay.
End of TI transcript.
TROY, MR:
So that’s a conversation again, Ms Clare,
between you and Mr Briotti?---Yes.
At 6 minutes past 3 on this particular afternoon?---Yes.
You make the point, I think, to Mr Briotti in that call
that the person that he’s asking about, Boardman – sorry,
he asked us whether we are all done, and you explained to
him there’s one who still needs to be done, but at 3.30?
---Yes.
That’s a reference, presumably, to 3.30 pm.
---Yes.
Is that right?
And you would have been going, would you, off the yellow
sticky notes that had been provided by Mr Briotti?---Yes.
Again, for that particular person, Mr Boardman, you would
have known, wouldn’t you, that he was not actually taking
the test at 3.30 on that particular day?---Yes.
You were asked some questions about a Michael Richardson,
and you were checking and confirming to Mr Briotti that he
was entitled, or he had an entitlement?---Yes.
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
18
Mr Richardson was not someone you had ever heard of?---No.
Thank you.
That can be taken off the screen.
I just move forward in time, Ms Clare, and ask for
call T3284.
Start of TI transcript, T3284:
CLARE:
Good morning, Shire of Koorda,
Karen speaking.
BRIOTTI:
Hi Karen.
CLARE:
Yes.
BRIOTTI:
Sorry to keep harassing you.
CLARE:
Oh God.
BRIOTTI:
I’ve just sent three licences up
ready for Friday. Just faxed them
up.
CLARE:
Oh yes.
Yeah.
BRIOTTI:
And uhm and I and the and the
originals are in the mail.
CLARE:
Oh okay.
BRIOTTI:
(indistinct)
CLARE:
Please load Friday at two thirty.
Please load Friday three o’clock.
Please load three thirty. Oh okay.
Yeah.
BRIOTTI:
Right.
CLARE:
Rightey-ho.
BRIOTTI:
Righto.
CLARE:
I shall put them in my diary.
BRIOTTI:
Good on ya.
CLARE:
Okay then.
BRIOTTI:
Bye.
CLARE:
See ya.
It’s Greg here.
I’m getting them now.
Thanks very much.
Thanks Greg.
Bye.
End of TI transcript.
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
19
TROY, MR:
Ms Clare, again that’s a conversation between
you and Mr Briotti?---Yes.
This is Wednesday, 6 May of this year.
this conversation?---No.
Do you remember
When Mr Briotti said to you at the start of the
conversation, “Sorry to keep harassing you,” do you know if
he had been in touch with you earlier that day?---No.
You don’t think he was or you just can’t remember?---I
can’t remember.
So when he said to you, “Sorry to keep harassing you,” you
can’t think what it might be that he was referring to?
---No.
Do you remember if he had been in touch with you at all
between 20 April, and we looked at the communications of
that date, and this date, on 6 May?---No, I don’t know.
Mr Briotti explains to you I think that he has faxed
three licences up ready for Friday?---Yes.
So this is an instance where the licences or assessment
sheets are provided by fax?---Yes.
This, as I say, is Wednesday, 6 May and when you say,
“Please load Friday at 2.30. Please load Friday 3 o’clock.
Please load 3.30,” when you say that in this conversation
would you have been reading off the sticky notes that were
attached?---Yes.
Or written in some way on the fax that you received?---Yes.
So you were being provided with instructions by Mr Briotti
that there were three licences, although they were being
faxed on this day, which is Wednesday, 6 May, they couldn’t
be processed until two days later - - -?---Yes.
- - - on the Friday, and they had to be processed at those
times that are stipulated, 2.30, 3 o’clock and 3.30?---Yes.
When you had that conversation with Mr Briotti, were you
clear in your mind that Mr Briotti was not going to be in
Koorda on that Friday; that is, 8 May?---Yes.
Thank you. That can be taken off the screen. If we could
just place document 0272 back up please; 0272.
We have seen this document before, Ms Clare. This is a
printout of text messages sent from you to Mr Briotti and I
just want to look at the final columns or final rows which
are Friday, 8 May 2015. It would appear that you
communicated by text message with Mr Briotti starting at
9.12 am on that particular day. Can you see that?---Yes.
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
20
Then going through until - the last one is at 3.32 pm where
it says in the text message, “All done,” and, “Finished”?
---Yes.
You see that. So the first one is, “Sanderson 9 am, PTA,
done,” and then a number of other names throughout that
day. Just looking at those names as they appear in these
text messages, are any of these people known to you?---No.
To the best of your knowledge, none of them are from
Koorda?---No.
That can be taken off the screen.
Thank you.
We have seen two examples of occasions on two dates,
20 April and 8 May, when you would advise by text message
Mr Briotti that for a particular person who had – call it
the paperwork – taken an assessment, that that had now been
processed in the system?---Yes.
When did you start the practice of sending messages by text
message to Mr Briotti to confirm to him that things had
been processed within the system?---I can’t remember when I
started.
Would it have been from about the time that you started to
receive the batches of paperwork in early 2014?---Probably.
I can’t be certain.
Do you remember how it was that it first arose? Did
Mr Briotti ask you if you could communicate with him by
text message to let him know when things had gone through?
---No.
You don’t remember?---No.
Mr Briotti was for some years, as I understand it, the only
person who was effectively servicing the area for the Shire
of Koorda for people who wanted to take driving tests?
---Yes.
Obviously he wouldn’t come out that frequently because of
the distance but he would come out on occasions?---Yes; as
required.
As required. So presumably if there was a build-up of
people in Koorda who needed to take a test, he would come
out and he would administer those tests?---Yes.
There was no-one else in the area who could do that?---No.
So the work that he did in that regard for the community
was to your knowledge quite important?---Yes.
He was someone that you had known for quite some time?
---Yes.
Over the period when you say that you had been processing
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
21
these documents for Mr Briotti in the way that we have
looked at, did he ever pay you?---No.
Did he ever provide you with any gift of any sort?---No.
Commissioner, those are the questions I have for the
witness.
THE COMMISSIONER:
Why did you do it?---Sorry?
Why did you do it?---I think I trusted him that he was
doing the correct thing. I said I’ve known him for quite a
while. Yeah; I just didn’t remotely think that he was
doing anything wrong or misleading anybody. Yeah; I took –
yeah; I just trusted him that he was doing the correct
thing.
But it can’t have been the correct thing to get forms faxed
to you on a Wednesday, to be processed on a Friday. You
must have realised that the person couldn’t possibly have
sat the test two days on. So why did you do it?---Yeah; I
don’t - I don’t know. I can’t say why I did it. Why I –
yeah.
Very well.
JAMES, MR:
Mr James, do you have any questions?
Yes.
I didn’t quite catch your reply to the question – the
answer to whether you had been offered any gifts or given
any gifts by Mr Briotti?---No.
You weren’t.
I have no other questions.
Thank you, sir.
THE COMMISSIONER:
Thank you, Mr James. Thank you,
Ms Clare. You’re free to go?---Thank you.
(THE WITNESS WITHDREW)
TROY, MR:
Your Honour, I wonder whether we can either
take a short five-minute break or a midmorning adjournment
prior to the next witness.
THE COMMISSIONER:
of 10 minutes.
TROY, MR:
Yes.
We will take a midmorning break
Thank you, sir.
____________________
9/11/15
CLARE, K.N. XN
(Public Examination)
22
HATHAWAY, RHIAN ASHLEIGH called:
THE COMMISSIONER:
Please be seated. Ms Hathaway, before
you give evidence it is necessary for you to take an oath
or affirmation.
HATHAWAY, RHIAN ASHLEIGH affirmed:
THE COMMISSIONER:
Ms Hathaway, you have completed the
notice to witnesses and signed it?---Yeah.
Did you read it?---Yeah.
Do you understand it?---Yeah.
I appoint Mr Troy and Ms Nelson as counsel assisting me and
Mr Troy will be asking you questions on my behalf.
TROY, MR:
---18.
Ms Hathaway, how old are you at the moment?
Are you employed by the Shire of Dowerin?---Yeah.
How long have you been employed by the Shire for?---Since
November 2013, about two years.
So about two years?---Yep.
You were about 16 when you started working there?---Yep,
that’s right.
Did you have to go on a course in Perth in the early part
of this year?---This year?
Yes, or was it last year?---I’m pretty – I think it was
last year, yeah.
Do you remember that being in Innaloo in Perth?---Yep.
That was at the start of last year?---Yep.
So 2014?---Yep.
So that would have been fairly soon after you started to
work for the Shire?---It was a few months. I think it
might have been February.
Of 2014?---Yeah.
The purpose of that course was to introduce you, was it, to
the computer system that the Department of Transport use?
---Yeah.
Because some of the work that you would do with the Shire
would be work that is carried out by the Shire on behalf of
the Department of Transport?---Yeah.
9/11/15
HATHAWAY, R.A. XN
(Public Examination)
23
There’s a particular computer system, I think, called
TRELIS?---Yes.
You had to undergo some training in how to work that.
that right?---Yep.
Is
If someone wanted to take a driving test or a practical
driving assessment in Dowerin, they have to have I think a
learner’s permit. Is that right?---Yeah.
They would need to pay a fee?---Yeah.
Then a booking would be made with the person who would
carry out the test. Is that right?---Sorry, what do you
mean by that, “carry”?
If someone is going to take a test or a practical driving
assessment, there is a person who examines them in effect?
---Yeah.
Assesses them?---Yeah.
That person was until May or so of this year Greg Briotti?
---Yes.
Is that right?---Yeah.
Did you have an understanding that if, say, someone who
lived in Dowerin who wanted to take a practical driving
assessment they would need to book an assessment with
Mr Briotti?---No, ours – we don’t have the system on the
computer like where you put the online bookings in.
Sure?---We have our own like little set-up, like through
Excel and they actually contact the Shire office and then
we would like have our own booking form and then that’s
when we would forward that information on to Greg and then
he’d say you’ve got five this day and then that’s when he’d
come up and carry out the tests.
So someone would contact the Shire firstly and you would go
into your sort of Excel system?---Yeah.
And when you did that you would be looking to see if there
was availability for a particular day. Is that right?
---Yep.
What was the next step then, that you or someone would
contact Greg to see if he would be in Dowerin at a
particular time?---So when Greg usually comes up he will
give us a date that he’s in Dowerin next, and then that’s
when we would – we actually public – like size it in our
local despatch so people in the community know, obviously,
and then they contact us and we would put it in and then
once it got maybe a week to the date, then we would contact
Greg and let him know how many people that we had booked in
for that day.
9/11/15
HATHAWAY, R.A. XN
(Public Examination)
24
Then he would come up and carry out the tests, would he?
---Yeah.
He wouldn’t come if there was just one person, he would
wait until there was a number of people booked. Is that
right?---Yeah.
You would have a record within your system as to who was
booked in for tests on a particular day?---Yep.
About how often would Mr Briotti come to Dowerin to carry
out the driving assessments?---Once a month.
Was that always once a month or did it vary?---It depends.
On school holidays he would try and come up obviously when
the kids are home, so he’d try and come up more often.
Would he always come up on week days or weekends as well?
---No, only week days.
Only week days?---Yep.
When he would come up would he come in and speak with
people within the Shire offices?---Yep.
Did you meet him in that way?---Yes.
You would have met him at some stage after you started
working for the Shire?---Yep.
You understood that he was the person who would carry out
driving assessments for the people who lived in the shire?
---Yes.
Did you know him before then or not?---No.
Did you understand that he lived in Perth?---Yes.
The driving tests, whether it’s a motorbike or a truck or
whatever it was, where would that be carried out if tests
were occurring in Dowerin?---So they’d meet – like whoever
was coming in for the test, they’d meet at the Shire
office. They would come in and like we would speak to them
as well, make sure they had their learner’s permits on them
and then Greg would then take them for their driving around
the town.
You obviously working in the Shire offices wouldn’t be a
witness to the tests, you would just be aware that they had
arrived for a test and then you understood that Mr Briotti
would take them off and test them?---Yes.
If someone passed the test they would come back to the
Shire would they with the paperwork that showed that?
---Yeah.
And give them either to you or someone else working for the
9/11/15
HATHAWAY, R.A. XN
(Public Examination)
25
Shire and you would then be able to enter the details into
the computer system?---Yeah.
That’s the TRELIS system that you had the course about?
---Yeah.
If someone was actually taking a test in Dowerin and passed
the test, they would normally give you, that is, the person
who took the test would normally give you the paperwork?
---No, Greg would give us like the other copy.
So it would be Greg rather than the person who took the
test?---Yeah, but the person that came in as well.
As well?---Yeah, because they get their own copy.
So there’s a couple of copies and you would be
either by the person who took the test or Greg
both?---So Greg would give us his copy, to us,
yeah, obviously the person would get their own
their test as well; but, yeah, Greg would give
that we needed to process online.
given a copy
or perhaps
and then,
copy of
us the one
Obviously if someone turns up at the Shire offices and
they’ve got a test booked and they meet Mr Briotti and go
off and do the test and then return with the paperwork,
that’s all pretty normal obviously?---Yeah.
Were there ever instances, were there ever occasions when
you were provided with paperwork that suggested that people
had carried out a test on a particular day when you hadn’t
seen Mr Briotti that day?---Yeah.
It’s really difficult perhaps but can you give any
indication as to when that started to happen in your
experience?---Well, I got my – it must have been just after
I got my log-in, after I did my training; so it would have
been like February, March.
That’s 2014?---Yes.
Once you had done your course and then you’re able to use
the computer system, it’s from then you become aware that
there were occasions when the paperwork would suggest that
someone had carried out a test in Dowerin on a particular
day, although to your knowledge they hadn’t. Is that
right?---Yeah.
When you started to become aware of that, do you remember
if you discussed it with anyone that you worked with?---No.
Do you remember if you ever discussed it with Mr Briotti?
---No.
When you saw Mr Briotti would you speak with him for any
lengthy period of time or would it just be to say hello?
---Yeah, just to say hello like when he would come in.
9/11/15
HATHAWAY, R.A. XN
(Public Examination)
26
You were obviously when you first started to work within
the Shire, relatively junior in terms of your position?
---Yep.
Was there anyone who was your sort of immediate superior
that you reported to?---Yep, Sonia King.
What is her job title?---Finance manager.
When there were occasions where you would process into the
system documents that suggested a test had occurred on a
particular day when it hadn’t, did you ever discuss with
that lady this process?---No.
Did you have any concerns?---No.
Did you wonder why it was that you were being asked to
process into the system details that you knew were
incorrect?---Well, obviously I believe that, myself, that
driving assessors must have a limit of how many they can do
a day; tests, that is.
Did anyone ever tell you that?---No.
Did you ever discuss with Mr Briotti whether that was the
reason why he was providing you paperwork that suggested
that tests had occurred on days that they hadn’t?---No.
No.
Knowing as you did that Mr Briotti lived in Perth, did you
ever wonder whether some of the tests that were said to be
carried out in Dowerin were actually occurring in Perth?
---No.
That never occurred to you?---No.
Did you ever wonder whether the tests were occurring at
all?---Yeah, I thought he was doing them; like, I mean, he
used to come up, like I know he used to come up, obviously
because he lives in Koorda, to visit his family so I just
thought he would do them on the way. It’s pretty hard to
get into the system in Perth, so - - I wonder if I can just show you couple of examples please,
Ms Hathaway. If I could call for document 0270.
This document that has popped up on the screen in front of
you, and it’s in two parts, just to help you orientate
yourself. The bit at the top, when you see the name Dylan
Bland, and then it goes down to Charles Moore. I
understand that’s a printout that’s taken from the Shire of
Dowerin computer system?---Yeah,
It’s a printout of a screen shot, and then the second piece
of information that appears on this page is something
that’s taken from the Department of Transport computer
system. All right? So if we look at the top section, and
9/11/15
HATHAWAY, R.A. XN
(Public Examination)
27
if we go right to the top just to see the date, we can see
that there are practical driving tests booked with Greg for
Friday, 27 February 2015. All right?---Yeah.
And just to help you, that appears to be the only date in
February when Mr Briotti had assessments booked in
Dowerin?---Yeah.
We can see that, leaving aside Mr Moore at the bottom, who
it seems doesn’t have an entitlement because there are
outstanding fine penalties, there are a total of 10 people,
starting with Dylan Bland, who were booked in to carry out
tests with Mr Briotti on 27 February. Do you see that?
---Yeah.
And the tests would start at 9 o’clock and finish at
2 o’clock?---Yeah.
See that?---Yeah.
Just to take an example of the first person, that’s
Mr Bland, so he was booked in to take the test for an RE,
which is a motorcycle licence, at 9 o’clock. If we look
down at the second part of this document, which is the
Department of Transport information, about two thirds of
the way down, can you see a reference to Dylan Bland?
---Yeah.
See that? So his details have been entered into the
Department of Transport system as of 27 February 2015?
---Yeah.
Showing, it seems, that he had passed the assessment that
was carried out with him on that date. That’s 27 February.
Do you see that?---Yeah.
Either you or someone else who worked for the shire would
have entered those details into the system?---Yeah.
And you would have done so based on the paperwork given to
you by either Mr Briotti or indeed Mr Bland?---Yeah.
You would have aware that Mr Briotti was in the Shire of
Dowerin on that particular day, that is 27 February?
---Yeah.
And you would have been aware of it at the time, you would
have known that there were a number of tests booked for him
that day and you would have been dealing with some of the
people that took the tests that day?---Yeah.
They would have arriving and you would have been directing
them to Mr Briotti and that would have continued throughout
that day?---Yes.
There are also, however, if we look at the section that we
were just looking at, which is from the Department of
Transport, there are a number of people of are entered into
the system has having taken a test in Dowerin on
9/11/15
HATHAWAY, R.A. XN
(Public Examination)
28
6 February.
Can you see that?---Yeah.
Starting with Braydon Higgins, and then a person called
Paul Phillips. His name appears twice because there were
two different tests that he apparently took on that day.
So looking at the names of the people who were recorded as
having taken the test on 6 February, Braydon Higgins, Paul
Phillip, down to Adam Cockburn, do you recognise any of
those names?---No.
Are they people who live in the Shire of Dowerin?---Not
that I know of.
Would it have you that would have entered into the system
the fact that they had apparently taken tests in the Shire
of Dowerin on 6 February?---Possibly, yeah.
Who else would have done so?---Well, there was a few of us
there, so there’s myself, Emma Richards, Shirley Howard was
probably there then, and Wendy Flavell.
So about four people who had access to the computer system?
---Yeah.
Did you ever become aware of the fact that, according to
the information that had been entered into the Department
of Transport system, seven people had apparently taken
tests in the Shire of Dowerin on 6 February. Did you ever
become aware of that?---What was that, sorry?
Did you become aware of the fact that the official
Department of Transport system suggested that seven people
had taken tests in the Shire of Dowerin on 6 February?---I
don’t know. I assume so.
Have you got no memory of entering these details in?---No.
I probably did though, because it was back in February.
Did you ever in the time that you were working for the
shire wonder about the fact that there appeared to be quite
a lot of people that were apparently taking tests in the
Shire of Dowerin?---Like these ones?
Yes?---There was a few when I was there.
People who you had never heard of - - -?---Yeah.
- - -but who apparently were taking tests in the Shire of
Dowerin?---Yeah.
Were you ever a little bit perplexed by that?---No, I
suppose when I entered them, so - - Did you ever become aware of the fact that people were
apparently taking tests in Dowerin on a day when Mr Briotti
wasn’t was there?---What was that? Sorry.
Did you ever become aware of the fact that people were
9/11/15
HATHAWAY, R.A. XN
(Public Examination)
29
apparently taking tests in Dowerin on a day that Mr Briotti
wasn’t there?---No.
You never became aware of that?---No, not until all this
stuff has come out.
Thank you. That can be taken off the screen. Can I ask
that document 0089 is placed up on the screen please.
Thank you.
Ms Hathaway, this is a document that relates to 13 April
2015. I think you were shown this when you were
interviewed by investigators from the commission. Do you
remember being shown this document?---No, I don’t remember,
but I could have been, yeah.
It’s in reverse chronological order, so what we are looking
at on this page is the last entries for this particular
day, which is 13 April 2015. We can see a reference to a
Martin Becker. Can you see reference to him and the
operator I think is you, R. Hathaway?---Yes.
And according to this entry he has passed the HR class on
13 April 2015?---Yeah.
Is that right?---Yes.
According to this document?---Yeah.
Have you ever heard of Martin Becker?---No.
Is he someone that you had ever heard of living in the
Shire of Dowerin?---No.
Do you know if Mr Briotti was in Dowerin on 13 April?---I
can’t remember. That’s a while ago.
Would there be occasions when you would enter into the
computer system the fact that someone had taken a test in
Dowerin on a particular day when you knew that Mr Briotti
was not in Dowerin on that day?---Yes.
Were you sometimes given particular instructions by
Mr Briotti as to what time you should enter the details
into the system?---Yes.
Would he tend to use a system of putting yellow sticky
notes on documents to advise you as to what to do?---Yep.
The documents that had yellow sticky notes on, would they
be received in the post or by fax or how would - - -?---No.
He used to – like when he’d come up to do the test, he
would leave them behind, like you know. So like when he’d
come up, he’d leave them with us.
He would leave the assessment sheet?---Yeah.
But would he leave assessment sheets with yellow sticky
9/11/15
HATHAWAY, R.A. XN
(Public Examination)
30
notes - - -?---Yes.
- - - telling you what time to enter it into the system?
---Yes.
But he would physically be there at the time when he would
do that?---Yeah.
And the yellow sticky notes, would they relate to that day
or some date in the future?---I don’t know. I’ve never
looked, to be honest.
But you would have looked at the yellow sticky notes on
occasions and - - -?---All it ever said was, “Please
enter,” and a time.
Would that time be on the same day or a date in the
future?---I can’t remember. I’m sure it was the same day,
yeah.
You never remember receiving documents that told you to
enter it into the system some date in the future?---No.
Were there occasions when you would receive documents when
Mr Briotti wasn’t there, so you would get them in the post
or they would be left at the office?---Not since I’ve been
there, no.
You never remember that happening?---No, not in the post.
When he would give you documents that had yellow sticky
notes that told you what time to enter it into the system,
did he explain to you why he was doing that?---No.
Did he explain to you why it was necessary to enter it into
the system at a particular time in a day?---No.
Did you have any understanding as to why it was that you
were being asked by him to enter the results into the
system at a particular time?---Well, like I said before, I
just assumed that he’s obviously only allowed to do – take
a certain amount of time for each test, so I suppose one
after the other would allow enough time as if the tests
were being done.
Did you ever think that one of the reasons he was doing
that was because he was doing the tests elsewhere?---No.
And that he needed to ensure that there was enough time so
that he wouldn’t get caught out?---Yes.
That occurred to you?---Yes.
So did that occur to you because you had an understanding
that he was doing the test somewhere other than in
Dowerin?---No. Like, because like of the time like to do a
test.
9/11/15
HATHAWAY, R.A. XN
(Public Examination)
31
Yes?---I think they have to have like 45 minutes, half an
hour between every test. Like that’s how long a test
usually takes.
But was he asking you to enter it at a certain time so as
to ensure that he didn’t get caught out?---I assume, yeah.
And you assumed that at the time?---Yeah.
What did you think he would potentially get caught out for
doing?---Doing either too many tests or like not allowing
enough time between - - What about doing tests for people who weren’t actually
coming into Dowerin?---No.
Sorry?---No, I didn’t think that he was doing that. Do you
remember that you were spoken to by investigators from the
commission on 23 June 2015?---Yep.
And that you were interviewed?---Yep.
I wonder whether the transcript of the interview of 23 June
2015 can be displayed please.
Ms Hathaway, I just want to take you to one particular part
of this interview at this stage. This is a written
transcript of the questions that were asked of you when you
were interviewed at the Shire of Dowerin offices on 23 June
2015 by Mr Crane and Mr Ayling from the Corruption and
Crime Commission. Okay?---Yes.
If I could ask that we scroll through please to page 19; in
fact if we go to page 18 to start with just to put it into
context. Just at the very bottom.
The document that I was just showing you, Ms Hathaway, you
were asked questions about at this stage, that’s the
document that ends in 0089. Mr Crane asked you about the
fact that according to the document, on 13 April at 2.52 pm
you processed a test result, a physical driving assessment
for a HR class in the name of Martin Becker. Can you see
that?---Yep.
If we just go over the page, you were asked by Mr Crane to
explain how that happened and you said, “Greg would’ve just
given me that assessment sheet, yep.” That’s the
assessment sheet that would have shown that Mr Becker had
passed. Is that right?---Yep.
Then you said that after you saw that; that is, after you
saw the assessment sheet – “We will fill out whether it’s a
pass or fail and I just would’ve loaded it on the system.”
Can you see that?---Yep.
Mr Crane then asks, “Would you have ever met Mr Becker?”
and you say, “No, not that I recall.” You were then asked,
“Did you ever get the feeling that Mr Becker or other
9/11/15
HATHAWAY, R.A. XN
(Public Examination)
32
people weren’t coming to Dowerin?” and you said, “Yeah”?
---Yeah.
So when you were working for the shire at the time when
Mr Briotti was carrying out driving assessments, you did
get the impression, didn’t you, that there were some people
that although on the face of it they had taken a test in
Dowerin, they weren’t actually coming to Dowerin?---Yep.
What caused you to get that feeling?---Well, I wasn’t
seeing them, like, because they weren’t coming through the
shire office.
But nonetheless they were still being entered into the
system?---Yeah.
As having taken the test in Dowerin?---Yeah.
That was something that had occurred from the time that you
started to get access to the computer system?---Yep.
So as of June 2015 it had been going on for about 15 months
as far as you were aware?---Yeah.
About that? From about February 2014 through to June
2015?---Yeah.
Does that sound about right?---Yeah.
So given that you had that feeling that there were people
who although the paperwork said that they were taking the
test in Dowerin, weren’t actually coming to Dowerin. Did
you ever discuss that with anybody?---No.
Did it ever occur to you to discuss it with anybody?---No.
Were you afraid to discuss it with anybody?---No.
Did you think that there must be something wrong to an
extent with this with what was happening?---Yeah.
You did?---Yeah.
Why would you not have spoken to somebody that you worked
with to ask why this was happening?---I don’t know,
because, like, it was happening before I was even – before
I got my job.
How did you know it was happening before you started?
---Because when I started in November I would, like, watch
over the girls to try and learn a bit about TRELIS before
I, like, obviously got my login, because I was under age.
So you started to work for the shire in about November
2013?---Yep.
And you didn’t go on a course until February 2014, so for
9/11/15
HATHAWAY, R.A. XN
(Public Examination)
33
the first two or three months you can access the computer
yourself. You would be watching other people?---I wouldn’t
access the computer. I would just, like, watch what they
were doing.
And you became aware, did you, that there were people who
apparently carried out a test in Dowerin that hadn’t
actually come to Dowerin?---Yeah.
And you were aware of that from the word go pretty much.
Is that right?---Yeah, when it started.
So as you were watching over someone’s shoulder and you
became aware of that, did you ask them why it was they were
processing people who had apparently, according to the
paperwork, sat the test in Dowerin when they hadn’t come to
Dowerin?---No.
And the people that you were observing at that stage, they
would be the people who you told us about I think; Emma
Richards, for example?---Yeah.
Wendy Flavell?---Yeah.
Shirley Howard?---Yeah.
Did you get on fairly well with them?---Yeah.
And you never asked them why this particular system was
operated?---Not that I remember.
Just to look at one final example, perhaps, 0271. Again it
seems, Ms Hathaway, from the entry that is at the top of
this page, which is from the Shire of Dowerin, there were I
think four people who were booked in to take tests on
16 May 2014, and one person cancelled three days earlier.
Can you see that?---Yeah.
Those names that you can see there, Lisa Sinclair, Emily
Buck, Jamie Williams, Lachlan Wiltshire, are they some of
these people that you know?---Yeah.
And they’re locals?---Yeah.
We can see, for example, that Jamie Williams is booked in
at 2 o’clock on 16 May. We can see in the date at the
bottom of this page that his name appears for 16 May but
there are lots of other people whose names appear as having
apparently taken a test in Dowerin on 16 May 2014 in
addition to those four people?---Yeah.
That would be an example, presumably, of an occasion when
you were aware that there were people who had apparently
taken the test in Dowerin but hadn’t actually come to
Dowerin. Is that right?---Yes.
Did you get a feeling that by processing into the system
people who had apparently, according to the paperwork,
9/11/15
HATHAWAY, R.A. XN
(Public Examination)
34
taken the test in Dowerin but hadn’t actually come to
Dowerin, that you were doing something wrong?---Yeah.
And you knew that at the time?---Yeah.
But there wasn’t anyone that you were able to talk to to
discuss that?---I assume I could’ve but I didn’t.
Is there any particularly reason that you didn’t?---Not
really.
Would Mr Briotti sometimes call through to the office and
ask if a particular person had been loaded into the
system?---Yes.
And he would just ring the shire telephone number, would
he, and he would speak with either you or one of your
colleagues?---Yes.
If it was you, you would tell him, would you, if a
particular person had been loaded into the system?---Yeah.
When you did the course in Perth in Innaloo in the early
part of 2014 do you remember if they gave you any guidance
as to how important it was to try to ensure that the
Department of Transport database as accurate as it could
be?---From what I remember, yes.
That was one of the things that was being stressed to you?
---Yeah.
And that you, as a person working for the shire, were one
of the people who would be putting information into that
computer system?---Yeah.
Did they stress to you that it’s important that you believe
that what was being put by you into the system was correct
and accurate?---Yeah.
But despite having had that training it never occurred to
you to ask any questions about why it was that you were
entering into the system the fact that someone had taken a
test in Dowerin on a particular day when you knew that they
hadn’t?---No.
You would meet Mr Briotti when he would come to Dowerin to
carry out tests?---Yeah.
Did he ever give you any money?---No.
Did he ever provide you with any gifts?---No.
Did you ever see him give any money or any gifts to
anybody?---No.
Thank you, commissioner.
witness.
9/11/15
Those are the questions for the
HATHAWAY, R.A. XN
(Public Examination)
35
THE COMMISSIONER:
to go.
Thank you, Ms Hathaway.
You are free
(THE WITNESS WITHDREW)
THE COMMISSIONER:
We will take a short adjournment.
____________________
9/11/15
HATHAWAY, R.A. XN
(Public Examination)
36
THE COMMISSIONER:
Please be seated.
ALCOCK, DACRE JOHN called:
THE COMMISSIONER:
Mr Alcock, it is necessary before you
give evidence at this public examination for you to be
sworn or affirmed and we will do that first thing.
ALCOCK, DACRE JOHN affirmed:
THE COMMISSIONER:
You have, I see, signed the notice to
witnesses. Did you read that?---Yes, I did.
And you understand it?---Yes, I understand it.
I appoint Mr Troy and Ms Nelson as counsel assisting me,
and Mr Troy will be asking you questions on my behalf?
---Okay.
TROY, MR:
Thank you, sir.
Mr Alcock, I think you have been I think the chief
executive officer of the Shire of Dowerin from 2008 until
comparatively recently?---Yes.
I just want to ask you some questions about your time in
that capacity as the chief executive officer. You were
aware, were you, that the shire had entered into a
contractual obligation with the Department of Transport?
---Yes.
And various statutory tasks that are carried out by the
Department of Transport were delegated to the shire to
carry out?---Yes.
And that would include, for example, the processing of
people that had carried out a practical driving assessment
which entitled them to have a licence to drive a particular
vehicle?---Yes.
There’s obviously some administration that is concerned
with that sort of process?---Yes, there is.
So people would need to, first of all, qualify in a sense
to take the driving assessment in that they would need to
have a learner’s permit, they would to have to pay a fee.
Is that right?---Yes.
And the fee, I think, in the first instance would be
payable to the shire?---Yes, that’s right, take the fee.
Then in due course would payments be passed on to the
Department of Transport?---Yes.
But the shire was entitled to take some payment to reflect
the work that had been done by the shire on behalf of the
Department of Transport?---Yes.
9/11/15
ALCOCK, D.J. XN
(Public Examination)
37
And that would all be set out in a contractual agreement
between the shire and the Department of Transport ?---Yes.
Did you understand that part of the word that your staff,
when you worked for the shire, would be carrying out, would
be following information that was conveyed to them,
entering information into the Department of Transport
database?---Yes.
And that there was a computer system that the department
used called TRELIS?---Yes.
A number of your staff were qualified to use that
particular system?---Yes.
I think there was four in total?---Yes.
One of those will be, perhaps a very junior example, was a
Rhian or Rhian Hathaway?---Yes.
She was a person that had been working for the shire from
when she was about 16. Is that right?---Yes.
From very late in 2013?---That’s correct.
When you had staff members who would be required as part of
their work to use the Department of Transport computer
system, TRELIS, they would obviously need to go on a
course?---Yes.
And that course, I think, was held in Innaloo in Perth?
---Yes.
And it would run, to your knowledge, for about five days?
---Yes.
It’s not a course that you ever had to undertake, I don’t
think?---Not in this position, no.
No, but you were aware of the fact that certain members of
your staff would go on that course?---Yes.
Ms Hathaway is an example of someone who went on that
course in the early part of 2014? Does that sound about
right?---Yes. I can’t remember the date.
All right, but to your knowledge - - -?---She attended the
course.
She attended the course, and as a result of that she was
able to herself enter data into the Department of Transport
computer system?---Yes.
Your own involvement in the sense of your oversight of the
use of this system by your staff members was quite limited.
Is that correct?---Yes, that’s correct.
9/11/15
ALCOCK, D.J. XN
(Public Examination)
38
Would you pay any particular attention to ensure that they
were accurately entering information into the system?
---No.
Were you occasionally required to witness signatures and
that sort of thing?---Yes.
Was that really the limit of your involvement with the
TRELIS computer system?---Yes, and a once a month sign-off
of the staff that were licensed to do it, or trained to do
it.
Right. So once a month you would sign off to report to the
department which staff it was that were licensed to use the
system?---Yes.
So you would update the department on a monthly basis?
---Yes.
You know a Greg Briotti?---I know Greg Briotti.
And you have known him, I think, for a number of years?
---Yes. I can’t remember when he first started in
Dowering, but yes, a number of years.
And you got on well with him?---I found him quite a
likeable person.
You thought that the work that he did as someone who would
carry out practical driving assessments within your area,
the Shire of Dowerin, was an important thing that he did?
---It was very important.
And you were in fact grateful to him for providing the
service that he did to your community when he was contacted
as a practical driving assessor?---Yes.
To your knowledge, there was no-one else who was carrying
out that role within your area?---Not that – we would have
struggled to get someone else, in my opinion.
You understood that the way it worked was that Mr Briotti
would carry out a test for somebody, whether they wanted to
ride a motorbike or a truck or whatever it was, and then he
would fill out some documents that indicated, for example,
whether the person had passed that test?---Yes.
Did you ever see examples of that type of documentation?
---No.
Did you ever get a realisation that, although it was being
said that Mr Briotti was carrying out the tests in the
Shire of Dowerin, he was not in fact carrying the tests on
occasions in Dowerin?---I guess that really didn’t come to
arise until he wasn’t allowed to carry out tests in
Dowerin, and then talking to staff members. I was
certainly aware then; before then, yeah.
9/11/15
ALCOCK, D.J. XN
(Public Examination)
39
Can I just break that down a little. You were notified at
some stage that he was not allowed to carry out tests in
Dowerin any more?---Yes.
Did you become aware of that fact through the Department of
Transport or through the commission?---I’m pretty sure it
was the Department of Transport.
Then you were interviewed by the Corruption and Crime
Commission on 23 June 2015?---Yes, that’s correct.
You were asked a number of questions by investigators Kent
Crane and Alan Ayling?---Yes, that’s correct.
So obviously when you were told it seems by someone from
the Department of Transport that Mr Briotti was not able to
carry out tests any more, you would have got an
understanding that was because there was some form of
allegation against him?---Yes, something. Yeah, he’d been
– he wasn’t allowed to carry them out any more because
something wasn’t being done correctly.
But prior to that, that is, prior to being told that he was
no longer able to carry out this work, prior to that time
you also had some suspicions, didn’t you?---Look, well,
yeah, you’re working away and you hear that, you know,
yeah, I guess the first inkling and that would have been
earlier this year was that when we had to wait 15 to
30 minutes for a staff member to put through the – I don’t
know what you call it, once they’d passed their driving
test, that did seem a bit odd.
Can I just go into that a little bit. So you’ve got staff
members who on receipt of information from Mr Briotti are
going to enter details into the computer system. Is that
right?---Yes.
So they’re whatever phrase you used, they’re loading
information in but they’re entering into the system
information that’s going to go to the Department of
Transport?---That’s correct.
For example, it will indicate that a particular person has
passed a test to ride a motorbike on a particular date?
---Yes.
As I understand what you say, at some stage at the start of
this year you understood that some of your staff members
who were doing that work, that is, were entering details
into the system, had to wait for a certain period before
they could make the entry?---Yes.
You said that they had to wait for what, 15 or 30 minutes?
---Yeah.
You understood they had to wait for the period that you
quoted was 15 to 30 minutes?---Yeah, 15; 15 minutes, you
know, 20 minutes was what I recall. It might have been 30.
9/11/15
ALCOCK, D.J. XN
(Public Examination)
40
How was it that you got that realisation that in some way
people were being told that they had to wait a certain
period before they can enter the data into the system?---To
why it was? You know, whether he was running early or
late, you know, that could have been a reason.
I’m not so much asking the reason for it but when did you
realise this thing was happening, this practice was
happening?---It would have been February or March.
How did you realise it?---I’d overheard it at least a
couple of times.
Who did you overhear speaking?---I remember Greg speaking
to a staff member. I couldn’t remember which staff member
it was because it could be one of three or four, depending
on the - - When you heard Greg speaking to one of your three or
four staff members, was that speaking to them in person or
by phone?---It was in person.
So he’s actually at the Shire offices?---He was at the
Shire offices.
He’s speaking to one of your members of staff?---Yes.
You can’t remember who it was?---Look, I can’t remember
who.
But you were present in order to overhear some of the
conversation?---Yes. I was in my office but I could still
hear it, yes.
You could hear, could you, Mr Briotti telling that
particular staff member that they had to wait a certain
period before they could enter the data into the system?
---Yes.
Did you involve yourself in that conversation at that
time?---No.
When Mr Briotti left, did you speak to the particular staff
member that he had been speaking to?---No, I didn’t.
Did you make any further follow-up inquiries about that
particular process at that stage?---No, I didn’t.
Did you understand on other occasions that other members of
staff were being asked by Mr Briotti to delay entering data
into the system?---Not on those days. After the – once he
couldn’t come to the Shire of Dowerin to process or to take
practical driving assessments, as staff we – you know, we
talked about it and - - I don’t want to ask you about that because that’s after the
event in the sense that you - - -?---No; at the time, no.
9/11/15
ALCOCK, D.J. XN
(Public Examination)
41
Can you think of any other instance where you became aware
of the fact that Mr Briotti was telling people who worked
for you to delay entering data into the system?---No.
Would you ever speak with Mr Briotti to ask him if he had
been to Dowerin at a particular time?---If he had been to
Dowerin at a particular - - Yes, at a time when he was apparently - - -?---Did I
actually speak to him?
Yes?---He’d come into my office and we’d have a chat if he
had time.
But would you ever ask him about whether he had actually
been in Dowerin at a time when, according to the paperwork,
he had been carrying out tests?---No.
Would you ever ask him if he had been in Dowerin on a
previous weekend, for example?---No.
Did you ever think there was anything a little odd in the
way Mr Briotti was going about his practice so far as the
tests in Dowerin were concerned?---No.
Did you ever have an understanding that Mr Briotti was
carrying out tests other than in Dowerin?---At the time?
No.
Are you sure about that?---Yeah.
Yes.
Afterwards I - - -
No, not so much afterwards but at the time?---Okay. Yep.
I mean, I actually recall a couple of instances where he
may have done them on a Saturday morning in Dowerin but,
you know, I didn’t think anything different and as long as
he was booked in, you know, that was a – yeah.
You became aware of the fact that he apparently was
carrying out tests on a Saturday?---I remember one or
two times; yes, at least two times.
Did you think there was anything odd about that?---No.
Can I just ask you about something you said in your
interview, Mr Alcock, which is the interview that was
carried out on 23 June.
THE COMMISSIONER:
TROY, MR:
Do you want this up on the screen?
Yes, please, sir.
I think it’s about to.
Mr Alcock, this is an interview that was carried out with
you on 23 June at the Shire of Dowerin offices as you can
see?---Yeah, okay.
Mr Crane and Mr Ayling were the people who were asking you
questions and can I take you please to page 4 of this
interview. Mr Crane towards the top of the page says to
9/11/15
ALCOCK, D.J. XN
(Public Examination)
42
you, “What it’s come down to specifically with this
investigation is that it’s been identified that Greg did do
tests, for example, away from the town site of Dowerin,”
and you said “yeah” and then he asked you, “Did you have
any awareness of that and you said, “I suspected that was
the case.” Can you see that?---Yes.
Then he asked you what led you to have that suspicion and
you say in answer, “Oh, you overhear things”?---Yep.
What you’re saying there, Mr Alcock, it would seem is that
you had a suspicion as a result of what you overheard that
Mr Briotti was doing tests away from the town site of
Dowerin. Is that right?---Yes.
That was a suspicion you had prior to being notified of the
fact that Mr Briotti was no longer able to do tests in the
town site of Dowerin. Is that right?---Yes.
What I would like to know, Mr Alcock, is what is it that
you overheard that caused you to suspect Mr Briotti was
doing tests away from the town site of Dowerin?---I guess
when – you know, when they were – when they had to wait to
put through tests, that was a suspicion that they may have
been done at another time or day. But I wasn’t – didn’t
know for 100 per cent sure until after the fact.
***
So are you referring to the single occasion when you in
your office overheard Mr Briotti speaking to one member of
your staff?---It was at least a couple of times, yes.
So there was
little while
as well?---I
surprised if
the one occasion that you told me about a
ago, but there was at least another occasion
can’t specifically remember. I wouldn’t be
there was at least two.
I don’t want you to guess?---I remember one positively
and - - You can remember one where you have told us that you were
in your office and you overheard what you told us about?
---Yes.
Can you think of any other occasion prior to the
notification as to what had happened to Mr Briotti, can you
think of any other occasion when you overheard something
that caused you to suspect that he was doing tests away
from the town site of Dowerin?---I can’t recall
specifically; that’s the trouble. I know of the one
occasion - - But even on that occasion, what you overheard was
Mr Briotti simply telling one of your members of staff that
they should wait for 15 or 30 minutes before entering the
results into the system?---Yes.
This is at a time when he is physically in Dowerin?---Yes,
that’s correct.
9/11/15
ALCOCK, D.J. XN
(Public Examination)
43
Because he’s there talking to them?---Yes.
What was it about that that you overheard that caused you
to think or develop a suspicion when he was doing tests
away from Dowerin?---It just seemed strange that we had to
wait to process something that we – I mean, they had
bookings certain periods apart that should take the time of
the test, and then they get put through; so it was odd that
the staff had to wait to process those tests, so why was
that caused.
So there was a number of questions that occurred to you?
---A number of questions, yes.
Did you raise those questions with the member of staff that
Mr Briotti had been speaking to?---No.
Why not?---I don’t know.
do anything about it.
I went on with my work and didn’t
You were the chief executive officer?---Yes, that’s
correct.
And you overheard something that caused you to think or
form a suspicion at least that Mr Briotti was doing tests
away from Dowerin?---Yes.
Although you understood, didn’t you, that he was required
to carry out the tests in Dowerin?---I actually didn’t know
whether they had to be done in Dowerin or not, never been
trained in the transport licensing, so no. I wasn’t aware
of how the system worked; all I know is that we processed
them. Once the tests were passed we processed them.
I’m talking about tests that were booked for people, tests
that are booked through the Shire of Dowerin when bookings
were placed with the shire, you didn’t have an
understanding that the tests had to occur in Dowerin?---No.
Did you have any suspicion that the tests were occurring in
Perth?---No.
Did you have any suspicion that the tests weren’t occurring
at all?---No.
Did you ever, subsequent to overhearing this conversation
on the occasions when you would speak with Mr Briotti, ask
him why it is that he had asked a member of your staff to
delay 15 to 30 minutes before entering the data into the
system.
Is there a particular reason why you did not have that
conversation with Mr Briotti?---I didn’t think much of the
situation at the time.
You liked Mr Briotti?---He was a likeable guy.
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44
He provided in your view a very valuable service to your
community?---Yes.
Did he ever pay you any money?---No.
Did he ever give you any gifts?---No.
The department, as we have established, would reimburse or
allow the shire to retain a certain amount of money for the
work that it did on behalf of the Department of Transport?
---Yes.
I think you would get a certain amount or certain
percentage for each entry that the shire processed on
behalf of the department?---Yes.
Would it follow that the busier the shire was in terms of
the number of tests that it was processing for Mr Briotti,
the greater the income to the shire would be?---Yes, we
would have got more income, yes.
Did that occur to you at the time?---No.
Was that a reason why you didn’t inquire at all of
Mr Briotti as to why it was that he was asking your staff
to delay entering details into the system?---No, it wasn’t
a reason.
Thank you, sir, those are all of the questions I have for
the witness.
THE COMMISSIONER:
go?---Thank you.
Thank you, Mr Alcock, you are free to
(THE WITNESS WITHDREW)
THE COMMISSIONER:
Mr Troy, do we have another witness?
TROY, MR:
We do, sir. We have one more witness who is
available to be called this afternoon.
THE COMMISSIONER:
Very well. It will be necessary for me
to adjourn until not before 2.30.
TROY, MR:
Thank you, sir.
(LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT)
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45