TRANSCRIPTION FOR
“THE LAST DAYS OF
PTOLEMY GREY” PODCAST
Bedrosian Book Club
September 1, 2015
BEDROSIAN CENTER
An applied research
center at the USC Price
School of Public Policy
BEDROSIAN.USC.EDU
Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center September 1, 2015 Disclaimer: Please note that the text below may contain transcription errors. >> Welcome to the USC Bedrosian Book Club Podcast. Today's edition features the book "The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey" by novelist Walter Mosley discussed by USC professors Raphael Bostic, Lisa Schweitzer, LaVonna Lewis, and USC Price PhD candidate, Danielle Williams. [00:00:23] >> Raphael Bostic: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the latest installation of the Bedrosian Book Club Podcast. My name is Raphael Bostic, I'm the Director of the Bedrosian Center for Bedrosian Center for Governance and the Public Enterprise. And today, we're going to discuss "The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey". This a fiction piece by the renowned Walter Mosley, who is an LA author who writes a lot about Los Angeles. Usually not this kind of stuff about Los Angeles, but his stuff is highly regarded. I'm joined by three amazing scholars who are going to help us have a conversation around this. And let's first go around the table, and I want you to introduce yourselves. So let's start with Danielle. [00:01:09] >> Danielle Williams: My name is Danielle Williams, I'm a fifth­year doctoral student. So I sort of think of myself as a scholar in training, but Professor Bostic was very kind and generous. I study issues related to mass incarceration, prisoner re­entry. [00:01:24] >> Raphael Bostic: You don't hear her call me kind or generous too often, so I'll take it. Thank you. [00:01:29] >> Danielle Williams: [Laughter]. [00:01:30] >> Raphael Bostic: LaVonna? [00:01:31] >> LaVonna Lewis: I'm LaVonna Lewis. I'm teaching faculty at the Price School. The Director of the undergraduate programs. And I do research around health disparities, resource environments, and cultural competency. [00:01:42] >> Raphael Bostic: And I'm also joined by Lisa Schweitzer. Lisa? Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 1 [00:01:45] >> Lisa Schweitzer: My name is Lisa Schweitzer. I am a faculty here at the Price School of Public Policy. I teach classes in justice, and public policy, and planning. [00:01:54] >> Raphael Bostic: And Lisa is the one­­ is the reason why we have this book this week. Lisa, why did you pick this, suggest that this be something that we read and discuss as part of the podcast? [00:02:08] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Simply because the­­ I read it a couple of times even before I suggested it. And the first time I read it, the sort of most obvious governance issue that came into play are sort of the bioethics, and health, and public policy issues around what, in some respects, is physician­assisted suicide. Right? That's one of the stories at the heart of Ptolemy Grey. But there are also so many points in the story about health and community, about the many failures, about the assumptions that so many of us make about how communities should support people or families, should support people, or if people should support themselves. And, you know, [inaudible] this, [inaudible] that. About how those don't really work very well. Right? And when you're dealing with real situations, there's questions about reparations and Black wealth that are at the center here. And there's also questions about policing institutions and how utterly useless they are in this story. So there is just a lot of public policy here. [00:03:09] And it's such a wonderful book that you don't really pay attention to those things, you're so swept away by the story. And it's only later that you sort of go, "What happened here?" [00:03:19] >> Raphael Bostic: Well, I was asking that question continuously as I read the book, "What is happening here?" Does someone want to tell us actually what happened? [00:03:31] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Well, the book­­ oh, go ahead. [00:03:32] >> LaVonna Lewis: I mean, so that's a very broad question. And so I think­­ [00:03:36] >> Lisa Schweitzer: A lot. [00:03:37] >> LaVonna Lewis: Right. A lot happened. Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 2 [00:03:39] >> Lisa Schweitzer: This is an old man who has led a long and story life with a lot of stuff going on. [00:03:42] >> LaVonna Lewis: Yeah, with a lot of stuff going on. And I think what struck me I guess as I was reading it was the idea of being captive, captive in his mind, captive in his community. And also, the power of one, and the fact that Robyn came in and in many ways released him from some of that captivity. And just to see how that transformation from being kind of locked in a private world that blended, you know, connection to the history, connection to some kind of traumatic events that happened over his lifetime, to really through a relationship and human­subject experimentation. His being willing­­ being able to kind of regain some of his connection, his awareness of his world and what was going on around him, and to be able to be in a position of being in charge of that where, for decades, that had been missing. [00:04:43] So I think that kind of struck me as I was reading it. [00:04:45] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Do you want me to give sort of a synopsis? [00:04:47] >> Raphael Bostic: Sure. [00:04:48] >> Lisa Schweitzer: So, Mr. Grey, Ptolemy Grey is an elderly African­American man who is living somewhere south of the 10. I'm not quite sure where his neighborhood is. But we know where his neighborhood is, we just don't know where the complex is. He is confused. The beginning of the book is a little bit hard to read I think because it's told from Mr. Grey's perspective, and he's not a reliable narrator in some respects because he's so confused. His age is catching up with him, but­­ and he has trouble communicating what's going on. But there's still those moments where he surprises you. You know, there's that moment where you realize that the kid has stolen from him and you think, "Oh, this is so terrible. He doesn't even realize it." Well, he does realize it. He just doesn't say anything until he's safe. Right? So he­­ there's still­­ he's still attached and he's still connected, but it's very hard for him because, as LaVonna pointed out, the present and the past are so fused in his mind that he's confused. And he lives in this apartment where he's just hoarded materials from his past. And he's doing it­­ he doesn't really understand why, but there is a reason for all this hoarding. [00:05:50] But, it's dirty and it's filthy, and it's not good for him. And he's sleeping under a desk­­ he's sleeping under a table actually, not a desk. And a young woman named Robyn enters his life and starts to bring him back to­­ and that connection of being in a relationship with someone Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 3 sort of helps you see how much that helps to ground people. And he is eventually presented with the choice to take an experimental drug that will give him his old brain back, but will most surely kill him within a few months if he takes it. [00:06:24] >> Danielle Williams: He takes the drug and uses his time I think­­ I love that you said fuse. And it is the past and the present being fused because I feel like he's­­ not only is he very­­ is he consumed with sort of writing a present wrong, but that is also very much fused with these past wrongs that have occurred, and somehow sort of making peace with that and facilitating sort of a future for the people that he cares about, [00:06:51] >> Raphael Bostic: So when we think about this, you know, we start and Ptolemy has dementia. Right? And he's pretty much on his own. Is that real? Like is that how our institutions are working today? And what does that say­­ I mean, the premise of this book on some level is that distressed seniors pretty much have got to make it on their own, right? Is that really where we are today? [00:07:22] >> Danielle Williams: I mean­­ so when I read this book, it reminded actually of two different books that were very different. One was Eric Klinenberg "Heat Wave", which is about the Chicago heat wave 1995 that­­ it's a wonderful book, and very details how it took about, I think 500, anywhere from 500 to 700 lives, most of whom were elderly, most of whom lived alone and primarily were African­American men. Even though women are much more likely as they get aged to live alone, it was men who were disconnected and also living in these spaces where they didn't feel safe, and they didn't feel supported whereas you had a much lower rate of death in the Hispanic communities. And I think he makes the argument that it's not just because of sort of like cultural values, but also the spaces that they lived in were more vibrant and more­­ they were more able to access services because of that and keep themselves safe during this horrible heat wave. So I think it's true. Right? A lot of the old people­­ elderly have to make it on their own, especially within cities. [00:08:22] The other book it reminded me of actually was "Go Down, Moses" by Faulkner. But I can talk about that a little bit more. That's a book about the elderly. But­­ [00:08:30] >> Lisa Schweitzer: I'm interested in LaVonna's perspective on this because I think­­ I see this very much as a health issue. Right? This isolation. [00:08:36] >> LaVonna Lewis: Um­hmm. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's why I talked about the issue of being captive. We have all of these assumptions about the care coordination and the systems of care that help people navigate and to make sure people don't fall into decline or distress. Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 4 And we­­ again, we assume that those things are in place, right? A physician assumes that when I give you the prescription, you do exactly what I've asked you to do. And then, we don't really talk about the outcomes and we kind of have a systematic way of documenting what really happens. And so I do think there is this isolation. And again, resources do matter, as Danielle was saying. I mean, the fact that I live in a place where we see each other as neighbors, which is some communities, versus living in a place where you're a threat and I don't know if you have my best interest at heart, may lead to very different outcomes for folks. And so without investing energy in terms of really figuring out what's the space like where people are spending their time, we really can't say with confidence that we're kind of making those­­ taking care of the folks that we think that we're taking care of. [00:09:48] And I think this book clearly communicates that. That, you know, people are in environments where, again without someone with connection with a regular, on­my­agenda, stopping­by kind of a connection, you know, the consequences can be catastrophic. [00:10:06] >> Raphael Bostic: Well, it was very interesting to, as you read the book, you see all the ways that the distressed Ptolemy has fear and risk. Right. So there's the neighbor that comes and robs him in his own house on a weekly basis, there's going to the bank and realizing that you can't even trust your nephew or cousin to give you the money that you actually earned, and the frailty walking down the street that he might not actually be able to get back to his place. You know, all those things do leave him to lock himself in his room. [00:10:49] >> Lisa Schweitzer: It's a perfectly rational decision. [00:10:50] >> Raphael Bostic: It's fully rational. And then, there was a really interesting passage in the book where his room is­­ he's on the first floor I think, and he has access to a yard. And so he goes out in the yard. But it's not really a yard. It's almost like a pen that other people can look down and see him down in the yard. So it was really a vivid notion of how hard life is. It's isolated and loaded with fear. And that's kind of an overarching piece to this, which is actually quite interesting. Is there something we can do about this though? I mean, what­­ ? [00:11:36] >> Lisa Schweitzer: This is one of those moments where you get­­ for me, I got about midway through this book and I'm like, "Okay, the one time the social worker was useful was when he could profit referring." [00:11:45] [ Laughter ] "When he could profit referring this vulnerable man to this doctor who, you know, is probably going to exploit him for these medical ends." And you have this sort of question about, Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 5 "What was this person doing before? Why has he never visited Ptolemy really to ask him some of the questions that you would like him to be asking like, 'Have you been to the store? Have you seen a doctor recently?'" [00:12:08] >> Danielle Williams: Well, and apparently Reggie, when he was looking after him, was trying to get him to sort of do it, make those appointments and things. [00:12:14] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Yes. So just in way of explanation, Reggie is the­­ I believe a second­cousin from my map that I made of the characters. And he was very close to this young man. Reggie looked after him, he came to visit. And then, Reggie falls victim to gun violence and dies. And that's why Mr. Grey wants to go ahead and take the medicine that he knows is going to take his life because he wants to figure out what happened to Reggie, and he wants to rectify that wrong. [00:12:40] >> LaVonna Lewis: I would add from kind of the health perspective that there is an investment in new care coordination models. And while I wish it was because people felt that it was the right, the morally responsible thing to do, it's all about money. And so given that we're increasingly responsible for more and more seniors, I think we're really taking a look at how do we better manage that population such that, you know, someone that is aging doesn't necessarily end up with a whole host of debilitating [inaudible] conditions, but is really able to age with some measure of health. And so I think that the care coordination is coming. I think it's­­ and I think the more the innovation is coming at those high­cost populations. So people that are driving the costs are getting more of the attention. And so does that mean that's where we need to be? Absolutely not. But I do think that we recognize that we are all better off when we better manage the health of our elderly population. [00:13:46] >> Raphael Bostic: And I think that's more a general statement. So we're better off if we manage our health as we go through so we don't get to acute crisis points And, you know, Ptolemy, he was well at crisis when we meet him, which is quite interesting. The thing that was interesting­­ so he meets Robyn. She comes­­ Robyn is not related to him. [00:14:14] >> Lisa Schweitzer: She's a family friend. [00:14:15] >> Raphael Bostic: She's a family friend through kind of a crazy­­ [00:14:20] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Through a not­very­useful niece. Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 6 [00:14:22] >> Danielle Williams: Yeah, great niece I think. [00:14:23] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Great niece. [00:14:24] >> Raphael Bostic: Right. But Robyn met [inaudible] through some family shenanigans. [00:14:30] >> Danielle Williams: Through her own mother's death. Well, she knew her before that. But that's why she comes to live with [inaudible] because her own mom­­ [00:14:36] >> Lisa Schweitzer: The family shenanigans is a fair­­ [00:14:37] >> Raphael Bostic: You all are being kind. [00:14:38] >> Lisa Schweitzer: It's a fair representation. [00:14:41] >> Raphael Bostic: She is just thrown into this family and is not treated very well. You know, she doesn't have her own room, people are trying to take advantage of her all the time. And so, she comes across Mr. Grey, who she calls Mr. Grey, and they actually build a relationship together. She cleans his house, she gets him some medical support, she starts to manage his money and get him to the bank, and they build a trusting relationship where they actually talk to each other even before the medicine. Right? It was interesting, you know, kindness, and warmth, and innocence seemed to help clear some of the clouds. That was actually, you know­­ Lisa, when you started by talking about our support systems and who in our communities give us support and what that can mean, it's very interesting to think about the premedication dynamic because it suggests that there's a human element to all this. [00:15:46] And if we don't have that human element, we don't really have anything. And people will, you know, be caught in a whirlpool of hardship and fear. That was just quite interesting. [00:16:01] >> Danielle Williams: Oh, I was just going to say I think it's also nice that, you know, it's non­familial because I think in a world of increasing mobility, right, we're not­­ I'm not around my grandparents. They're aging, I'm not there to take care of them. Other people are. Now some Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 7 of them are related to them, some aren't. So we do sort of build these relationships that aren't based on sort of traditional family structures we would normally expect to take care of people. And I think that will become increasingly prevalent. Or at least, if we want to have sort of this infrastructure where we actually support the aging, it will need to become more prevalent. [00:16:36] >> Lisa Schweitzer: The great thing about the Robyn­Ptolemy relationship is simply as you pointed out. She does have some skin in the game. She's not disinterested in him. She needs a place to stay where somebody is not going to be pestering her all the time. But she has limits, right? She has the capacity to limit that desire for her own well­being. And she's able to balance that with the well­being of this man that she encounters. And the nice thing about pre­medicine Ptolemy­­ and this is really artful writing I think on Mosley's part. He may be confused, but he is not stupid. He is a remarkable judge of character, even when he is very fuddled. And his insights with regard to Robyn in terms of her character are so on­point. He's not a fool, he knows that she wants a place to live. And he appreciates all these things about her. But what he­­ when he sees her as a great custodian is when she starts to clean up. And he realizes that this is in her nature to try to create something out of nothing, and to try to manage things well, and that that character really uniquely places her as a much better custodian of the dreams and visions that he has that he's not going to be able to carry on once he's gone than any of the other people in his world. [00:17:48] >> Raphael Bostic: I think the experience for the rest of the book bore that out for sure. LaVonna, you were going to say something? [00:17:53] >> LaVonna Lewis: No, I was going to make a similar point to what Lisa was talking about. I think that's what struck me. That even though one had decades worth of experiences with people and one had only, I mean, less than two decades, they were both remarkable judges of character, that they didn't apologize for why they responded to people in a particular way. They were just convinced that this is the appropriate thing given this person and what I think about this person. And so that's­­ I think that was a critical part of the connection that, for whatever reason, that was a transparency in terms of their ability to quickly diagnose the kind of people that they were dealing with, and to­­ that I think provided some protection for them obviously. But again, I think it's important that that connection was established. And so, yeah, that's what I wanted to say. [00:18:39] >> Raphael Bostic: So do you think those­­ I have two questions. So, first on this one, do you think that that quality of judging character is rare, is it common? Like, so how much should we have comfort that there'll be good outcomes, or is this kind of just the rare, rare exception and most seniors are going to be more just in the wind, blowing in the wind? Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 8 [00:19:12] >> LaVonna Lewis: So, [inaudible]. So, it reminded me of a video that was totally off­color. It was covering a story about basically people that were taking advantage of senior citizens by pretending to be the Grim Reaper, and actually people believing it. Right? And so I don't think that people­­ that the ability to quickly discern the type of people in front of you is universal. So I guess, in that respect, I don't think­­ I'm not hopeful that people will be able to recognize the folks that they can trust versus the charlatans. But I think in this particular case with Ptolemy and Robyn, it was I think part of their survival skills. Right? I mean, it's like you don't get to be old and Black by being crazy, particularly with the things that he saw, and then in an environment where you have unstable family situations going on. You have to be able to quickly figure out who's in the room if you're going to survive. And so I think that may be kind of their­­ what they share, is a set of traumatic experiences that forced them to figure out, you know, "I need a quick mechanism to figure out who's on my side and who I should avoid." [00:20:20] >> Raphael Bostic: And it is interesting that so many scam artists and schemes target seniors. Right? With new technology and new relationships assuming that, you know, a large number of them won't have been trying to keep up to be able to tell the difference. It's a really difficult situation. And then the other thing I wanted to ask was something that Danielle said about non­familial support. It's really­­ and actually intergenerational, non­familial support. So we have some friends who are a generation above us who we're not related to. We hang out and have offered a lot of support to them. Is that common? I mean, I've never really thought about this. Is this a general dynamic, or when we get into generational, is there a tendency to stay in the family? [00:21:19] >> Danielle Williams: I think it depends. I think sometimes it's a question of necessity, especially if you're someone, an older person who doesn't have immediate family but is perhaps lucky enough to have still developed, kept those sort of friendly, even if they're a younger generation, relationships. I think also­­ I don't know. In cities, I always felt like in, when I lived in New York, you know, if there were older people in like my building, you always try to kind of make sure they were okay. Right? If they had an issue or something. But, you know, I don't know that that's­­ [00:21:53] >> Raphael Bostic: You feel everyone in the building was doing that? [00:21:55] >> Danielle Williams: I don't know that everyone did that. I just­­ I would always think, you know, "I have a grandma too. I'm hoping someone would do the same for her." [00:22:01] Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 9 >> Lisa Schweitzer: One of the things we're sort of skirting around in this discussion is it's not just a question of structures, and it's not just a question of the built environment, it is a question of virtue at some point. You know, Robyn is not perfect, but she's virtuous. And Mr. Grey is not perfect, but he's also a virtuous man. A less­virtuous man would have blown throw that money a long time ago. He's loyal, he's in many respects very wise. And so, there's these two people who are in need, but both of them are, at their core, a very good people. Now, he made some mistakes with his family. Right? This was one of those I think really important points about the non­familial, intergenerational relationships is that he does have two children. And that's one of the first questions that I had in reading through the book is, "Where are they?" And, you know, he didn't really seem to be much of a presence in their life. He doesn't have a lot of recollections about them. And when that happens with your kids, you can't really expect them to be around to change your diapers. But there are plenty of kids who got a lot from their parents who aren't to change their diapers either. And the quest of looking in, paying attention­­ I mean, I don't live in a multifamily building, but I live in a neighborhood. [00:23:02] And my husband and I watch out for the older ladies on our street. You know, we're paying attention when they're walking. We're trying to see when they're out and about. And I'm not going to say this any other way, it's because Andy and I are generous and we care about other people. And I think that's where you have to start, with something like this. It's not enough to sort of say, "Oh, I take care of my family. I take care of my own. I'm set up." It isn't sufficient. You have to be other­regarding to want people to live and flourish anywhere, let alone in city environments. [00:23:34] >> Raphael Bostic: So, would you see this book as sort of an indictment similar to the bowling­alone type of­­ ? [00:23:40] >> Danielle Williams: Oh, that's interesting. See, I don't­­ I agree with everything you said. Except I think a lot of it talked­­ I think you feel­­ because even Robyn, right? Robyn has an edge. She carries a knife, she threatens someone with a knife because she has to. Right? And that's some­­ I feel like to me what this talks about is how your community can really shape the type of person you get to be. You don't get the luxury of being generous and trusting everyone when you walk out your door, you know. And that's a very different than I've had my whole life. [00:24:11] >> Lisa Schweitzer: But that's not what it was talking about. [00:24:13] >> Danielle Williams: What do you mean, in terms­­ I just­­ sorry. When he said the indictment of bowling alone­­ Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 10 [00:24:15] >> Lisa Schweitzer: I'm not saying you­­ [00:24:15] >> Danielle Williams: Sorry. Okay. [00:24:16] >> Lisa Schweitzer: I'm not saying you walk up, you know, walk up to the first person that you see and offer them your lifesavings. That sort of human flourishing of the people that around you and that you see on a regular basis, some of which may be deserving of your care and others may not be. But you may not offer that care based solely on their deservingness because I still have questions for Ptolemy's kids even if he didn't do all that much for them. Would it kill them to be sort of checking in now? I'm judging. [00:24:42] >> Danielle Williams: Yeah. [00:24:42] >> Lisa Schweitzer: But­­ [00:24:44] [ Laughter ] You know, I also have, you know, family relationships very far away and, you know, it's a great deal of effort to stay connected. But who else is going to do it if you don't? And it's the same for family, it's the same for neighbors. Who else is going to do it if you don't now that we have created a government environment where any sort of notion of a social safety net is a taboo thing to even say? [00:25:06] >> Raphael Bostic: I knew we were going to get there eventually because part of this isolation is about, "Well, what is an infrastructure around people as they enter into this stage of their lives, and is it formal and is it consistent across all of our communities? And if it's not, what obligation do we have collectively to try to make sure that it is?" And that's a­­ it's a deeper question that we're not going to resolve on this podcast, but it is one that I think everyone should think about. I wanted to move to the next phase. So he's not doing so well with his dementia. He goes to the doctor, the social service person, then comes back to his house after the appointment and says, "You might want to go look at­­ check in at Dr. So­and­so." I forgot what the doctor's name is. But he goes, and the doctor offers him basically a choice. [00:26:07] You can be coherent, sharp­minded and energetic for three months, or you can stay how you are for a couple more decades, just cloudy, fearful, you know, not in control. That is an interesting choice to make. And I'm wondering, would you all have done what Ptolemy did? Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 11 [00:26:30] >> LaVonna Lewis: I would have absolutely did what Ptolemy did because for me it's about a quality of life. And if I'm sleepwalking through my life, that's not quality for me. And for me, it would be worth the risk. I mean, those lucid moments where I know who I am, what my life has been like, would be worth the risk for me. [00:26:52] >> Danielle Williams: So I'm going to hedge and say I don't know because I, you know, I remember when my grandmother, she was­­ actually, she died at the age of 91, the same age Ptolemy Grey was in this book. And by that point, she had these sort of episodes where she was very lucid in the past, you know, she was remembering her childhood, you know, getting the cows with her parents, and things like that. And to that extent, seemed happy. So I don't know. You know, it's one of those things. I­­ you­­ of course Ptolemy Grey doesn't have agency when he's in his sort of fuddled state. And I guess maybe it's more of an issue of how much agency matters to you. I don't know. [00:27:33] >> Raphael Bostic: Now how much does agency matter to you? [00:27:34] >> Danielle Williams: Generally, a lot. But I don't know. You know, if I'm 85­­ and in some ways, there's almost a­­ this will sound awful, but maybe­­ but it's almost­­ there's a magical aspect I felt like with my grandmother that she could all of a sudden remember these things that everyone thinks she had­­ she certainly hadn't talked about. I don't think she'd really remembered in years, but she was­­ it was almost like, you know, she was physically transported back in time. She probably would have preferred to always know which one, which of her kids she was talking to. But, you know, there was something beautiful in that I suppose. So I don't know. I probably would take the three months just so­­ especially if I had a score to settle. Let's put it that way. If I was like Ptolemy and I had some things I needed to do, unfinished business, definitely taking the three months. But if I was just like, "Eh," I don't know. [00:28:20] >> Lisa Schweitzer: This is one of the reasons why I think this book is so interesting from a public policy perspective, simply because of the ideas about­­ in some respects for all practical purposes, this is a physician­assisted suicide. He, you know, he's presented with this choice. He knows if takes this medication, he's done for. He is attentive. But, you know, he's the Devil and he knows it. He's going to try to use the Devil to his own ends, and you can respect that. It is a very difficult question about whether­­ and it gets to this whole notion of what role does dignity play in our decisions about public policy regarding the decision to allow people to end their lives when they're ready to. And it's a complicated set of questions simply because of this idea of how much clarity does Mr. Grey have when he signs up. Now, he's got Robyn looking Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 12 after him at that point. And there's that nice, little, clever twist saying, you know, "Robyn could probably stop him, and she objects." [00:29:25] But she doesn't stop him even though she probably could, and that it seems very clear that she thinks he's making the right choice too. I think it's very hard to answer the question would I do it in the abstract. I don't know that you're able to understand that choice until you're actually in it. [00:29:45] >> LaVonna Lewis: But I think that's why I disagree in the sense that that's why we have difficulty with end­of­life conversations because until I'm in crisis, no one wants to bring the topic up. And wouldn't it be nice if I knew before the crisis? And so I take comfort in the fact that we were able to ask my father, you know, when he was, you know, when he was cancer, what he wanted. And so, we didn't have to second­guess that. I mean, all the evidence says that most people want to die at home, and they don't. And so, there's something about our willingness not to open the door or open that conversation that puts us all at a disadvantage because we have to wrestle with the fact that we honestly don't know what our loved­one would want because we never took the time to have the conversation. [00:30:34] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Oh, no. I don't disagree with any of that. [00:30:36] >> Raphael Bostic: That's a very hard conversation to have, and there's never really a good time to have that conversation. And it's also particularly uncomfortable in a case like this where we know that the elderly person actually has resources that the young people want. Right? And­­ [00:30:58] >> Lisa Schweitzer: That's a big question in assisted suicide. [00:31:00] >> Raphael Bostic: And so, in this case, Ptolemy basically took the decision out of their hands eventually. But in many cases, the decisions is actually effectively in the hands of the heirs. Ad how do you weigh that? I think that's really, really difficult. [00:31:20] >> LaVonna Lewis: So, I mean, it's a couple of things. I mean, you can have an advanced directive, which basically lets everybody know what you would want if you can't make decisions for yourself. And even when you have an advanced directives, sometimes family members aren't ready to let go. Right? And so going back to policy, when we were talking about the Affordable Care Act, we talked about why don't we underwrite some of this conversation. And it got translated into death panels for senior citizens. And it was effectively killed, no pun Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 13 intended. But it really is an appreciation for, again, that we try to bring in the tough issues. But again, maybe we're not ready for it. But if we're going to get to the point where we can have some level of comfort as a survivor, then we have to be able to­­ we have to be willing to take the risks of opening that box. [00:32:11] >> Lisa Schweitzer: And we should probably, for the purposed of clarity, also point out that physician­assisted suicide is legal in many places, just not California and not in large parts of the United States. [00:32:20] >> Raphael Bostic: I can't imagine living where the present was distant. Right? In a place where, you know, the news is on and you don't really­­ it doesn't really make any sense to you. And the radio, the only radio you want to listen to is radio from 20 years ago [inaudible]. That would be extremely difficult to contemplate. And to do that, it'd almost like­­ it'd be almost like you're just on a treadmill and you're not really going anywhere, you're not making progress, you're not evolving as a person, or as­­ to me, that would be very difficult. So when I read the book and I realized what direction it was going in, I immediately started yelling, "Don't do it! Don't do it!" [00:33:06] [ Laughter ] This is what I do when I read these books. [00:33:10] [ Laughter ] [00:33:11] >> Danielle Williams: Yeah. [00:33:11] >> Raphael Bostic: But I kind of knew that he was going to do it. And then, it gets you to think because then the transformation was so stark and so immediate, not just the mental, but the physical. The things he was willing and able to do physically changed as well. [00:33:29] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Just to interrupt though. He does have significant suffering. Right? There's quite a bit of illness before he gets­­ [00:33:33] >> Raphael Bostic: It was going to kill him. [00:33:34] Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 14 >> Lisa Schweitzer: Well, even before he gets that lucidity, he goes throw a pretty rough period where he may or may not have gotten to the other side. Right? The doctor sort of said, "Well, you know, some folks don't make it through that initial few days of horrific fever." [00:33:48] >> Raphael Bostic: Dr. Borman did warn us all that the book could be a whole lot shorter. [00:33:53] [ Laughter ] [00:33:55] >> Danielle Williams: Yeah. [00:33:55] >> Raphael Bostic: But fortunately, Ptolemy got through and­­ [00:33:58] >> Lisa Schweitzer: But that in and of itself is I think part of that issue of, "Is this a viable choice to be doing?" [00:34:03] >> Danielle Williams: Okay so, what I was going to say­­ now, I want to say two things. So the first thing I was going to say was about I think it's very interesting because you talked about when he comes back to being himself. But in some ways, he talks about they're not seeing me, they're seeing Coy Dog, which, for the listeners at home, if you haven't read the book, you should have. Coy Dog is a man from his past. He was an older gentleman who has sort of bequeathed this legacy to Ptolemy when he was very young­­ [00:34:32] >> Raphael Bostic: He's like a childhood mentor. [00:34:34] >> Danielle Williams: Childhood mentor, but he was much older. And he committed what Ptolemy refers to as a righteous crime, I think what all of us would maybe refer to as a righteous crime, and pays dearly for it but sort of leaves his legacy to Ptolemy. But he talks about him becoming­­ [00:34:51] >> Raphael Bostic: What is the righteous crime? Just tell­­ [00:34:52] >> Danielle Williams: The righteous­­ oh, are we just­­ okay, spoiler alert. The righteous crime is [Laughter] Coy Dog steals these gold doubloons or, I mean, there's some sort of gold coins Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 15 that a rich White man and his family have been putting away I think one a week since the Civil War. And he steals it one night, and he puts it in a cave and covers it up. And he actually leaves it for Ptolemy to help the future, and sort of takes this back as part of their legacy. And his intention is to simply run away with a very small amount of the treasure. And he is lynched. He's caught and lynched. But I­­ oh. So to make the point that I was trying to make was, you know, I think it's interesting we talk about, okay, he's living in the present. But he's not. I mean, if anything, this is about how we're always constantly sort of dealing with our past, overshadowed by our past because he even talks about they think they see me, but who I'm really becoming is Coy Dog, who I really­­ this is Coy Dog. [00:35:53] And Coy Dog is sort of­­ I think he sees himself a little bit as a vessel of Coy Dog. And the other issue­­ sorry, I was going to talk about­­ yeah. So I actually didn't even think about physician­assisted suicide because I was so like, "This is like the history of exploitation of, you know, of Black, the Black community in medical experiments." And that to me is what sort of stood out so starkly and, you know, it brought to mind the Tuskegee experiment and all of those things. So that­­ I was so like, "That's why he knows he's the Devil, that's why he calls him the Devil, and he knows that he is the Devil." I mean, that's Ptolemy. [00:36:25] >> Raphael Bostic: So, Danielle, that's interesting because I did not read that second­­ the book as him thinking he was Coy Dog. [00:36:34] >> Danielle Williams: Well, I don't think he thinks he­­ but he talks about who they're really­­ there's a line of some sort like, "I'm really Coy Dog," or, "This is really sort of what Coy Dog would wear," kind of thing. [00:36:43] >> Raphael Bostic: But I do think­­ [00:36:44] >> Danielle Williams: I mean, I don't actually thinks he's Coy Dog, but I do feel like he feels like he's a vessel for what Coy Dog intended. [00:36:50] >> Lisa Schweitzer: It's a certain fearlessness, right? [00:36:51] >> Danielle Williams: Yeah. [00:36:52] >> Lisa Schweitzer: And a sort of moving forward and trying to enact justice. Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 16 [00:36:56] >> Danielle Williams: Exactly. Which he never did before in his life. And that's the note that's sort of the profess to the book that he leaves to Robyn when he's finally­­ he talks about that he should have run into this fire. He had a childhood friend who died in a fire. He should have run down­­ oh, you're talking about Coy Dog? Oh, yeah. Well, he should have run down when Coy Dog was being attacked, and tried to help. And then he also even says he should have left his wife who he loved and who seems to love him, but also was perhaps­­ was friendly to a lot of people let's say. [00:37:29] >> Raphael Bostic: So, Danielle is always so kind. [00:37:31] >> LaVonna Lewis: Could have had an Ashley Madison account. [00:37:33] >> Raphael Bostic: Right. [00:37:34] [ Laughter ] [00:37:35] >> Danielle Williams: She had the non­Internet version of an Ashley Madison account. [00:37:38] >> Raphael Bostic: Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting. I, again, didn't read it like that. I mean, I read the book to some extent as this is all of our lives. Right? We get to a point and we look back, and we see those moments when we should have done something different. He chronicled them in this letter. And then he gets to a point where he's at a crossroad and gets to­­ has another critical point, and he's going to go that different route. It's sort of the wisdom of hindsight we rarely get to kind of incorporate into our lives. And he's able to do that now in a way that was really interesting. And he did note the difference in his impulses and Coy Dog's impulses. And I think part of his regret is that he didn't take to heart the lessons that Coy Dog was trying to­­ exactly. [00:38:41] And that's the stuff that haunts him in his dementia, right? That's where he always comes back to, Coy Dog says I should have done this and I didn't do it. Coy Dog said I should, you know, he had wisdom and I didn't listen to the wisdom. And he's finally saying, "Okay, I'm going to take this drug, I'm not listening to that stupid wisdom­­ " [00:39:00] Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 17 [ Laughter ] And we're going to make some­­ an impact. And he makes his impact through the money because he does wind up getting the money from the cave and taking it with him to Los Angeles, but nobody knows he has it. [00:39:16] >> Lisa Schweitzer: He never does anything with it and he never told anyone. [00:39:19] >> Danielle Williams: Yeah. It's like an ultimate sort of passivity, right, in a way? For a long time, I think his whole life, it seems like he was very passive. [00:39:27] >> Raphael Bostic: He was, but he wasn't. So­­ [00:39:28] >> Danielle Williams: That's true, that's true. But he didn't have the sort of oomph that Coy Dog I think intended at least­­ [00:39:33] >> Raphael Bostic: Well, I don't know. So it was interesting when he was lucid, the people he interacted with. Right? So there's no way he should have known that attorney [inaudible] went in Santa Monica. [00:39:48] >> Danielle Williams: That's true. [00:39:48] >> Raphael Bostic: There's no way he should have known the antique collector, Mossa, who was in I think Westwood studio­city type area. Westwood Central­­ [00:39:57] >> Danielle Williams: Was it Beverly Hills? [00:39:58] >> Raphael Bostic: Beverly Hills. [00:39:59] >> Danielle Williams: It's Beverly Hills I think. Yeah. [00:40:00] >> Raphael Bostic: He should have never met those people. And so­­ but they all knew who he was. They all knew what he wanted. He had clearly talked to them about things. And so, I think he was actually more proactive than people recognized. I don't think any of his family Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 18 knows that he knows these people. But I mean, I think he was doing this all in secret because he knew their character and knew, if they knew, they'd come tear his house up and look for the money, which is basically what happens at the end. But he's ready for them. [00:40:39] >> Danielle Williams: He sets it in motion. Yeah. [00:40:41] >> Raphael Bostic: He sets a trap to­­ exactly. [00:40:44] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Can I just comment on that? Because I think this is a point where we sort of see how wise in some respects he is even when he is young, and that this is very clever device I think on the part of writer that gets at some of the things that LaVonna has been talking about. Is that I think in some respects he has hoarded this money thinking that, at some point, the right thing to do would present itself, you know. Coy Dog gave him a very specific mission when he gave them­­ when he gave him the gold. And he just didn't see the opportunity to do what Coy Dog had suggested he do with that up until his life. And then, things start to spiral out of control because of his dementia. He's much less able to do that. And then finally, this moment when he might be able to make a big impact for someone the way Coy Dog told him to manifests. And then, he takes it. And so for me, this is one of those things with Walter Mosley, which is one of those little, quick messages that you kind of got to be paying attention to see, which is, you know, your plans are your plans, and that's great. [00:41:44] But you don't control everything when it comes to that stuff. And it might actually be too late, right? By the time you realize something­­ by the time you are out of control, it could be too late for you to do the things you intended to do. [00:41:59] >> Raphael Bostic: That is absolutely correct. So I wanted to ask maybe three more questions, we'll see how much time we have. But do you see this as­­ did this leave you optimistic? Is this a hopeful book, is it a book that makes you feel like we're on the right and positive path? Or what is your view of what the book implies about or is trying to say, or what did it get you to feel about the future? [00:42:29] >> LaVonna Lewis: So, I started off talking about this issue of being captive and the power of one relationship. And I, you know, I am optimistic in the respect that I do believe that those types of relationships exist and do have power. You know, so connecting my plan to kind of your reality means that I may be able to fast­track my plan. Or to recognize that, you know, you're not my grandfather or great­grandfather, we have no connections other than our basic humanity, and that's enough for me to get involved. I think I'm hopeful in that respect. I'm also Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 19 hopeful, and going back to what I was saying earlier, just in terms of our beginning to understand the significance of population health and care coordination. We're understanding there's value added in helping those relationships materialize even if they're­­ if they don't develop kind of organically, maybe we can do it something intentionally in terms of putting people in those places to develop those relationships. [00:43:35] So I'm hopeful in that respect. But again, it's like I'm also distressed by the fact that, again, someone could basically be captive in their own home. And I think that is a very present reality, and it will continue to be for quite some time. [00:43:54] >> Danielle Williams: I mean, I saw this as hopeful in terms of the actual characters in the book. I think Robyn­­ I love that she, you know, at the very end she talks about­­ her boyfriend's name was Beckford, is that right? [00:44:04] >> Raphael Bostic: Um­hmm. [00:44:05] >> Danielle Williams: She's like, you know, "I had to tell him to go." [00:44:07] [ Laughter ] Because she­­ because, you know, you could tell that that was the money had become a thing. But she was strong enough to do that, and she was carrying out Ptolemy wishes as he had intended. So I think for, you know, she's definitely­­ she's going to be fine, and she's going to do her best to make sure that those kids, that Reggie's kids are fine. But in terms of the social context of this book, I don't know that we're making as much progress as we should be to rectify these issues. [00:44:37] >> Lisa Schweitzer: My husband likes to­­ [00:44:38] >> Danielle Williams: [Laughter] that was a shrug. [00:44:38] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Yeah it was a shrug. [00:44:40] >> Danielle Williams: For the viewers­­ the listeners at home. [00:44:41] Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 20 >> Lisa Schweitzer: A shrug. You know, my husband likes to joke that basically my basic baseline personality is that we're all doomed. My assumption about the world is that we're doomed. The world is a very difficult place for people who are not resourced. You know, it is that simple. And this, in some respects, this is not a happy book. In other respects, it is a happy book. And I agree with LaVonna in that I do believe in the power of individual relationships. I also believe in individual kindness, individual acts of kindness, can be remarkably powerful in their abilities to transform lives in big and small ways. And I don't think this book really changed that. I do think it does a nice job of illustrating a story that doesn't get told very often, which is the notion of somebody who is captive and aged. You know, and I think that's important. [00:45:36] >> Danielle Williams: And just to follow­up on that really quickly, I think it's talking about the personal relationships. I think that nicely connects to­­ if you listen to the last podcast [inaudible]. [00:45:46] >> Raphael Bostic: "The New Jim Crow". [00:45:47] >> Danielle Williams: "The New Jim Crow". Professor Armour talked about sort of the idea of radical, transformative forgiveness. And I feel like this is sort of in the same vein, sort of radical, transformative love for other people who aren't necessarily connected to you. And I think that's very interesting when we're talking about this at a very individual level, which of course is policy we don't necessarily talk about as much. We don't talk about changing hearts as much as we maybe we should. [00:46:13] >> Raphael Bostic: Well, we should. I think the president, President Obama, has done that with his eulogy in South Carolina. It was all about­­ much more about hearts than minds. And that's important. You know, when I read the book, you know, I told Aubrey that, you know, this is depressing. [00:46:33] [ Laughter ] It was very dark, sad. I didn't know what we were going to talk about. And I didn't think it was particularly hopeful. What­­ listening to you has sort of tempered me a little bit in the sense that there are shoots of­­ there are flowers in every [inaudible], and there is kindness that you will stumble upon. It's not the normal, but it's there, and we should celebrate it. And I think that that celebration is a consistent theme through the book, even in the midst of all the terrible stuff going on. We have murder, we have robbery, we have all manner of things [00:47:28] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Yeah. Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 21 [00:47:28] >> Raphael Bostic: There's a lot that goes on in this book. And yet, Danielle has­­ it looks like she has a Post­It note for every bad thing that's happened in the book. [00:47:37] >> Danielle Williams: Actually, I should have color­coded it. It's either LA mention or every act of violence. Yeah, so this is either an LA location­­ [00:47:42] >> Raphael Bostic: And she's got about 45­­ [00:47:43] >> Danielle Williams: Yeah. [00:47:44] >> Raphael Bostic: Tabs in the book. It's a rough book. And it does really speak to the roughness of life, particularly for the elderly. I think he makes a pretty compelling point on that. But at the end, he wasn't sad, he wasn't defeated. He was continually trying to impose himself on his environment. And that I guess is an optimistic thing, that we all continue to want to do that. There's something in the human spirit around that. All right, I wanted to ask one last question, which is a question I always ask. And that is, "Who should read the book, who would you recommend it to?" [00:48:35] >> Lisa Schweitzer: I think this is actually a very nice and accessible fictional meditation on that question about planning for the end of life. Right? Having a real conversation with people about reflecting on your exit. I think the evidence­­ and this is something that we don't talk about as much as we probably should even though policy school and in terms of governance until it gets to our discussions about sort of about national healthcare. And the discussion went south so quickly, and was never recovered. Right? The evidence that we do have from these places where it is a matter of public policy that people have more choice. There is absolutely no evidence that is anything other than appreciated. Right? But this adds value to individual's lives when we take these decisions and treat the end of life as seriously as we take the beginning [Laughter]. Right? And students of bioethics, students of health and aging should be thinking about this book. Any young social worker on how to not be useless and profiteering from your­­ [00:49:39] [ Laughter ] [00:49:41] >> Danielle Williams: Don't use the people you're a social worker for in human experiments, don't suggest them for human experiments. Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 22 [00:49:47] >> Lisa Schweitzer: For money. [00:49:48] >> Danielle Williams: For money, especially for profit. [00:49:49] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Unless you want me judging. [00:49:50] [ Laughter ] [00:49:53] >> Raphael Bostic: Danielle? [00:49:53] >> Danielle Williams: Oh. So you might roll your eyes and laugh, Raphael, when I say this. I think anyone new to LA should read this book. I think it's a sort of fantastic sort of span of LA geography in terms of what's around. And I think it gives a nice sort of introduction to some of the social issues, that they're not unique to LA. But I think it's a nice context to them, and it is a great read. So it sort of makes you appreciate the landscape a little bit. [00:50:27] >> LaVonna Lewis: I would say ditto to all of that. I would also add anyone that has a friend or family members with the diagnosis should read this book because they­­ I think it's a view into what the world might be like. And so knowing about that world may make me a better friend or family member in that space. And so, just having a sense of, you know, what it's like on the other end and not just about me I think would be very helpful. [00:50:58] >> Raphael Bostic: I think that'd be very interesting. And, Danielle, you were right, I did roll my eyes on that [00:51:02] [ Laughter ] Because­­ and the reason I did, this book­­ [00:51:07] >> Danielle Williams: Because it's too dark, right, you'll say? [00:51:09] Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 23 >> Raphael Bostic: No, no, no, no, no. Because I don't think the place mattered so much in this book. Right? This could have been in St. Louis, it could have been in Dallas, it could have been in Baltimore, it could have been in Charleston. [00:51:20] >> Danielle Williams: Yeah, but it's in LA. I don't know. [00:51:22] >> Lisa Schweitzer: See, I think if you want to use Mosley to explore LA, the [crosstalk]. You know those are­­ they're so fabulous, and they sort of take you back to a time. And so many of those things are still here, and­­ [00:51:33] >> Danielle Williams: But even though­­ because, you know, you talk about­­ I think­­ where did they­­ did they go to Ace Hotel? Where did they go for the­­ where does he go for the drink with Billy Strong and­­ [00:51:39] >> Raphael Bostic: The Aerie Bar. [00:51:39] >> Danielle Williams: Yeah, Aerie Bar and stuff like that. I thought it was a nice sort of slice of LA. I agree that this story could have been told other places, but I think he chose LA for a reason. And it's not just he writes everything in­­ [00:51:53] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Well, no. I actually think one of the reasons is that Mosley has a real gift for place in his writing It's one of the things that runs through all of his novels. He writes magnificently about Los Angeles. [00:52:03] >> Danielle Williams: Yeah. And I do­­ so, you know, a lot of the times the, with the stuff that I do, one of the programs I work on, I go into this, sort of these south of the 10 sort of generic area if you're­­ And I feel like he captured that really well. And I don't­­ let me put it this way. I guess I should say if you are new to LA and you are a middle or upper­middle class person who would normally not go south of the 10 and into these neighborhoods, then you should read it because you get an idea of what the people that are living close to you and that you interact with probably on a daily basis what their lives, what their neighborhoods are like. [00:52:38] >> Raphael Bostic: So­­ okay, I'll go with that. [00:52:40] Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 24 >> Danielle Williams: Okay. Is that better? No eye­roll? [00:52:42] >> Lisa Schweitzer: I was going to say, if we have to do this every time this man rolled his eyes, we would do nothing but explain ourselves. [00:52:46] >> Raphael Bostic: Hey, hey, hey, wait a minute here. [00:52:48] [ Laughter ] [00:52:49] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Raphael is a champion eye­roller. [00:52:52] >> Danielle Williams: I will say this. I always say that I find his eye­rolls comforting. [00:52:56] >> Lisa Schweitzer: I do. He's very expressive. [00:52:57] >> Danielle Williams: Because you know what he's thinking. And also, sometimes if you expressed a concern­­ [00:53:01] >> Lisa Schweitzer: He's thinking you're wrong. [00:53:03] >> Danielle Williams: Yeah. Well, there's sometimes where it's nice. So you've expressed a concern and he rolls his eyes, you know he doesn't think it's a concern. So it doesn't­­ then I don't worry about it so much. [00:53:11] >> Raphael Bostic: Who knew this was going to turn into a roast? [00:53:13] [ Laughter ] [00:53:15] >> Danielle Williams: You should have counted on that. [00:53:16] Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 25 >> Lisa Schweitzer: You should have stopped us before we started. [00:53:18] >> Raphael Bostic: Goodness, goodness, goodness. So I think that the one group that I think would really do well by this book would be folks who are contemplating reform because it does point to a bunch of risk areas, like areas where there's exposure and where there's potential problem that we need to figure out how to close those holes. And we see these holes repeatedly. I mean, I was struck that he­­ that Ptolemy went to the bank. Right? People don't go to the bank any more. Right? People do electronic fund transfers. [00:53:59] >> Lisa Schweitzer: I do, but that's okay. [00:54:02] >> Raphael Bostic: This is has been the hardest podcast I've ever­­ [00:54:04] [ Laughter ] [00:54:06] >> Danielle Williams: Well, I would say that this­­ to me, I would think older people still go to the bank. My grandma isn't doing her banking online. [00:54:12] >> Raphael Bostic: But going to the bank introduces risk. Right? [00:54:16] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Yes, it does. You're walking out with cash. [00:54:18] >> Raphael Bostic: You have cash, you have the physicality issues­­ [00:54:22] >> Lisa Schweitzer: And what I was going to say is I do go to the bank. And you know what? I am the only one under 70 in that room besides the tellers. [00:54:28] >> Raphael Bostic: I would think­­ that's probably right, that's probably right. And, you know, there is something­­ maybe 20 years ago there was a push to try to get everyone to have an electronic account so you could a do a lot of these transfers electronically. I feel like that effort has stalled in ways that are leaving people at risk. So anyway, there's a lot of reform opportunities that this book points to in terms of elder care, but also in terms of bioethics monitoring. You know, all those issues, which we're completely scared of. And it wasn't just in­­ Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 26 you talked in your opening comments, Lisa, about police. I think the police show up exactly once in this book and­­ [00:55:13] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Are not useful. [00:55:14] >> Raphael Bostic: They're not useful, they're really not useful. [00:55:17] >> Danielle Williams: Yeah. The beginning part where he feels­­ even though he knows Hilly, he can already tell Hilly is no good. He feels the need to protect Hilly. I thought that was so­­ [00:55:26] >> Raphael Bostic: Well, I guess the police showed up twice. [00:55:27] >> Danielle Williams: Yeah, they showed up twice. But he knows he doesn't matter. He's like, "I got it." He doesn't really remember who Hilly is or his connection to him, but he knows, "I have to protect him from the police," which I thought [crosstalk]. Yeah. It's like, okay, you have this man who's even so befuddled that he knows­­ [00:55:42] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Hardwired. It's hardwired in there. [00:55:45] >> Danielle Williams: Yeah. [00:55:45] >> Lisa Schweitzer: I think that is really important though because he does need to right this wrong himself at the end for pragmatic reasons as well because the guy who killed Reggie is bad, bad news. And these children's' mother is­­ they're not­­ she's not getting rid of him. [00:55:58] >> Danielle Williams: No. [00:55:58] >> Lisa Schweitzer: And so anything you might do for those kids, he is going to vitiate fast. And he's a stone­cold sociopath in the way that he is written. He is a nasty piece of work. I mean, here's this slender, non­threatening, befuddled, old, man and he's starting to try to pick a fight with him. That's how you can straight­up tell­­ [00:56:17] Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 27 >> Raphael Bostic: I don't think he started to pick a fight with him. He­­ [00:56:19] [ Crosstalk ] [00:56:20] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Well, he was trying to create an excuse to do violence to this old man. [00:56:24] >> Danielle Williams: Yeah. [00:56:24] >> Raphael Bostic: I think he was going to do the violence. I think there was no­­ [00:56:28] >> LaVonna Lewis: He didn't need a reason. [00:56:29] >> Raphael Bostic: There was no ambiguity there, and­­ [00:56:32] >> Lisa Schweitzer: He was a bad guy. [00:56:33] >> Raphael Bostic: And Ptolemy took his own­­ imposed his own form of justice. [00:56:38] >> Lisa Schweitzer: Yeah. Well, the whole rule of law thing, right? This whole notion that somehow public institutions would­­ and social contract would somehow straighten this all out for these folks is just­­ it's a joke. It's not happening, and so he has his own rule. And his own­­ [00:56:53] >> Raphael Bostic: And on that happy note, we have to wrap up, we're out of time. So I want to thank again Danielle Williams, LaVonna Lewis, and Lisa Schweitzer. Thank you all for joining me to discuss "The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey" by Walter Mosley. Great book, really thought­provoking, and so often happens the more you talk about it, the more things you learn and see. So I really appreciate that. For you listening, I hope you've enjoyed our conversation, and I hope you'll join us again next month. Next month's book is "Between the World and Me" by Ta­Nehisi Coates. There's been a lot written about him and his thoughts about reparations and the like. It will be undoubtedly another great conversation. In addition to listening to that, you should check out our playlist on SoundCloud or on iTunes for past episodes. I think you'll enjoy them. And I would really encourage you all to do that. [00:57:53] Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 28 So finally, thank you all for listening. I hope that you have been piqued to read more of Walter Mosley if you haven't read the book more about this. And in any event, let us know your thoughts. In this world where many of our listeners are so far away from LA, it's great to hear from you all on social media, so please do keep participating on that. Thanks again. And until next time, have a great month. [00:58:21] >> Thank you for listening to the USC Bedrosian Book Club Podcast. When given a choice for the September book, the voting was unanimous. So, tune in next time for a conversation about "Between the World and Me" by Ta­Nehisi Coates. Read "Between the World and Me" along with us, and listen on September 28th. Find links to some of the things we've discussed at our show page. Find it on bedrosian.usc.edu. Tweet us @BedrosianCenter. That's B­E­D­R­O­S­I­A­N Center as in center. You can email us at bedrosian.center@usc.edu. Or, drop us a note at our Facebook page; facebook.com/bedrosiancenter. This podcast was produced by Aubrey Hicks and Jonathan Schwartz. I'm Kristen DesCombes. Thanks for listening. [00:59:21] The USC Bedrosian Center Book Club Podcast recorded at the USC Sol Price School of Public Policy. Transcription for Bedrosian Book Club’s The Last Days of Ptolemy Grey Podcast USC Bedrosian Center ❘ 29